Do I have a problem with this Sacred Fist ability?

[Piratecat]

Sacred Fist, Defenders of the Faith; it seems to be a cool hand-to-hand class that doesn't out-monk the monk.

I have a rules issue with the Sacred Flame ability, though. Effectively, this ability lets the character cover his hands with sacred fire, eliminating normal hand-to-hand damage in favor of fire/sacred damage. It's a bit stronger than normal unarmed damage. I notice, however, that it is a spelllike ability, because it takes a standard action to activate it.

That's my problem.

If it is SP and not SU, do enemies with spell resistance become somewhat immune? And if so, what level is the Sacred Fist's SR check rolled at - his class level for Sacred Fist or his character level? Any advice or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Caliban]

Sacred Fist, Defenders of the Faith; it seems to be a cool hand-to-hand class that doesn't out-monk the monk.

I have a rules issue with the Sacred Flame ability, though. Effectively, this ability lets the character cover his hands with sacred fire, eliminating normal hand-to-hand damage in favor of fire/sacred damage. It's a bit stronger than normal unarmed damage. I notice, however, that it is a spelllike ability, because it takes a standard action to activate it.

That's my problem.

If it is SP and not SU, do enemies with spell resistance become somewhat immune? And if so, what level is the Sacred Fist's SR check rolled at - his class level for Sacred Fist or his character level? Any advice or thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Spell Resistance wouldn't apply as the flaming effect is being applied to the Sacred Fist and not the enemy. They are just receiving the secondary effect (damage), not the effect itself (flaming fist).

Just like a Flaming weapon will affect enemies with spell resistance.

 

[Piratecat]

Damn it, I think you're right! I hate making rules errors. Thanks, Caliban.

 

[jlhorner1974]

This may go off the topic a bit, but I'm interested more in balance than house-ruling something...

Piratecat, I'm interested in your opinions. You say that you don't feel that the Sacred Fist infringes on the Monk's territory. I don't disagree with you, but I'm interested in hearing why you think that.

I'm playing a Monk NPC in a campaign I DM, and in the future, I'm actually considering taking Sacred Fist just for the No Shadow Blows ability (which I believe grants unarmed attacks an enhancement bonus equal to the character's Wis mod). This really cuts through DR and pumps up to-hit and damage, and it's even effective in anti-magic, since I believe it is (Ex) and not (Su).

I always thought No Shadow Blows suited the monk better than an unarmed monk/cleric mix like the sacred fist is. I think the Monk is great but the monk lacks a lot of killer abilities above 13th level (possibly except for Quivering Palm).

The Ki Strike I think is a little lame. Not getting it at all until 10th level and then maxing out at +3 at 16th level? It seems like this was done intentionally by the designers to balance more attacks with high unarmed damage by high level monks. But it still kind of cripples monks (both the lack of + to hit and damage, as well as how many levels the monk needs to affect creatures with high DR). Sure, there are amulets of mighty fists, but they weren't around when the monk was developed. And why include Ki strike at all if it is expected t hat the Monk will be using some sort of magic item to give magical enhancements to unarmed attacks?

Also, the sacred fist, who also gets spells, is able to bypass DR (via the puissant fists ability) much faster than a monk who has no spellcasting and is much more combat-focused. Granted, sacred fist does less unarmed damage and lacks the UBAB of a monk, but still, something doesn't seem quite right.

Has anyone considered making some kind of Sacred Fist-like PrC more aligned toward the Monk?

 

[Piratecat]

Has anyone considered making some kind of Sacred Fist-like PrC more aligned toward the Monk?

That'd be coooool. Have you seen the Acolyte of the Fist, a Monte Cook PrC published in Dragon last year?

In particular, I think that Sacred Fists don't necessarily trump monks because they just don't have the iterative attacks. In a recent fight in my game, the 16th lvl monk/Acolyte of the Fist was attacking at least twice per round more than the Sacred Fist. That can make a big difference.

I do have a few worries about the power level of Sacred Fist, but I'm willing to keep an open mind. Once I've seen it played for a while, I'll have a better idea.

 

[jlhorner1974]

I did see it, but I kind of forget what it had now. From what I remember, somehow it kind of lacked the "punch" of the Sacred Fist (no pun intended). I'll look at it again tonight.

Again, I don't want to drift into House Rules territory too much, but in terms of balance, I see something between a standard monk and a Sacred Fist, dropping the spells of the Sacred Fist, while still enforcing a "no weapons beside unarmed" restriction.

I would base No Shadow Blows on Cha and not Wis (seeing Ki as "force of personality") so that Wis does not affect + to hit, + to damage, + to AC, and + to Stunning Fist DC all at once. (A Monk 12 / Sacred Fist 8 with a Monk's tattoo and Wis boosting items is a total badass, IMO. d20s for damage with all but one good sacred fist ability too!)

Maybe have an ability to allow Int to stack with something (Init maybe? any other ideas?).

Not only would this make a fun class idea but it really puts the Monk in a quandary, considering now all 6 stats will affect combat ability and the character is forced to think carefully about where to put those precious ability points and ability boosting items.

Str: Melee attack bonus, melee damage
Dex: Ranged attack bonus, AC
Con: HP
Int: Initiative?
Wis: Insight bonus to AC
Cha: Melee enhancement bonus to attack/damage


If you think this is cool, I'll post a thread on House Rules for a new Monk PrC and invite you to participate.

 

[Apok]

The Sacred Fist is a much more offense-oriented class than the Monk. They don't get anywhere near the number of neato special abilities the Monk gets, but the ones they do get are there to help them kick arse.

In the last Epic Level campaign I played in, my character was a Paladin 6/Monk 8/Sacred Fist 10. His saves were amazing and he could dish out some really sweet damage, but he lacked alot of the frills that being straight Monk added (poison immunity, SR, DR, etc). Monks are reknowned for their ability to survive nearly any situation. To offset this, the Sacred Fist focues on combat. Admittedly, one could argue all day about the relative value of combat abilities in 3e but I think the Monk and SF fulfill two very distinct roles in a campaign. I also like the idea of a non-oriental pugilist PrC, especially one that can be easily tied to a church or other religious organization.

As an asside, I think the idea of a PrC that took some of the Sacred Fists abilities (namely the NSB, which is their premier ability IMO) but was geared more towards Monks would be really cool.

 

[jlhorner1974]

Good analysis Apok. I think you have hit on the crux of what the difference between monks and Sacred Fist.

The combination of Monk defensive/survival abilities and the raw offensive power of the sacred fist is a powerful combo indeed.

I'd like to blend a couple of the powerful Sacred Fist abilities (No Shadow Blows) with more monklike defensive specials would be cool.

I would probably not include Sacred Flame, Inner Armor, or Spells, since they seem to be the defining tenets of the PrC, while the "Mental stat adds to combat prowess" idea has precedence elsewhere (Zen archery, that other badass OA PrC near the back of the book...)

I will probably create a post in house rules and link to it from here after I define a class concept to tie the abilities together.

Quick question: How well does No shadow blows compare in power to Quivering palm? I think No shadow blows is a bit more powerful since it has a lot more use compared to Quivering Palm, but giving up Quivering Palm should be worth something. In a sense, it would be like swapping out QP for NSB (and probably giving up something else to balance it). Of course, I believe you can get NSB as early as 13th level and QP not until 15th.

(And what's up with that OA PrC that adds Int to attack bonus and damage at 1st level of the PrC??)

 

[hong]

(And what's up with that OA PrC that adds Int to attack bonus and damage at 1st level of the PrC??)

The Shiba protector? That's Wis bonus, not Int bonus. None of its other class abilities are that offensive-oriented, though, IIRC. But it IS a candidate for worst flavour text evar: "At 10th level, the Shiba protector has realised the deep truth that all her ability scores spring from the same essence. Once per day....".


Hong "there IS such a thing as too Zen" Ooi

 

[jlhorner1974]

Thanks hong.

Yes, Shiba protector. I remembered it wrong and I didn't have my books in front of me.

Shiba protector is a pretty weird prestige class. It's this odd amalgam of one killer offensive ability (No thought), a killer defensive ability (SR), and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't quite seem to fit together. And like you said, the flavor text is ... lacking.

But still, No Thought at first level? It's possible to get this at Character level 6. Sacred Fist doesn't give this until Character level 13 at the earliest!!

Granted, in Sacred Fist, No Shadow Blows defeats DR, and with Shiba Protector (No Thought) it doesn't, but a 7 level difference in when it is given???