Do Magic Item "Shops" wreck the spirit of D&D?

[Vocenoctum]

Any actual "magic emporium" would have to have pretty good guards.

Just think of it like buying a gun in the USA. You can find cheap stuff anywhere, $1000 range less so, $50,000 guns you might have to travel to a large city, $100,000 guns you may only have 3 places in the USA to buy from. None of these places is a cakewalk, but if you have the money, you can get what you want.

The same applies to computers, or cars, or magic armor, or staves of magi...

 

[Hussar]

Originally Posted by Celebrim
One of the worst problems created by the idea of magic shops is such shops would represent an unbelievable level of wealth concentrated in a small area. Anything less than a dungeon protecting such a place would invite robbery. Adopting a CRPG approach to the problem would create CRPG problems. If the merchants must protect thier wares, so that plundering the dungeon is more attractive than plundering the town, then they must present CR equivalent challenges to the would be robbers.

The funny thing about this is if you look at old 1e modules, robbing the town was always more profitable than clearing the dungeon. Keep on the Borderlands, Orlane, Hommlet, all had scads more goodies than their attached dungeons. Yet, by and large, we didn't go around pillaging the towns (mostly). Why? Because, for the most part, we're playing heroes and that's not what heroes do.

 

[MerricB]

In addition, lots and lots of us that feel this way, didn't grow up with CRPG's as a major influence on our games. I don't think it's fair to try to catagorize our opinions as "less D&D" than others simply because of differing playstyles. CRPG's use that style for the same reason that quite a lot of D&D games did, not automatically the other way around.

Indeed, I haven't played any MMORPGs, and don't play many CRPGs... indeed, the modern CRPGs that I *have* played (Baldur's Gate in the main), have a limited selection of magic items in stock. Once you buy them, they're gone.

(This is as opposed to the old CRPGs of the SSI Gold Box series).

I like having the choice between limited access to magic items, and unrestricted access to magic items, and I use whatever seems right for the campaign. Mostly, unrestricted access has meant that the PCs have only been getting the Big Six items anyway - and those would be common in a world that allows crafting. (I like Steven Brust's Dragaerea for a reason).

Cheers!

 

[Nathan P. Mahney]

Indeed, I haven't played any MMORPGs, and don't play many CRPGs... indeed, the modern CRPGs that I *have* played (Baldur's Gate in the main), have a limited selection of magic items in stock. Once you buy them, they're gone.

(This is as opposed to the old CRPGs of the SSI Gold Box series).

The SSI games were the best, because if you knew the appropriate disk-swapping/saved-game tricks, you could duplicate any magic item that you found. So you got a girdle of giant strength and a longsword +5? Congratulations, make some more for the rest of your party, and a few spare just to sell for training money. You could also modify your characters to have straight 18s and maximum hit point. (I was such a cheater.)

 

[Cathix]

An exciting game "world" should have a realistic culture. Cultures usually have some form of commerce. If the world has magic, so should the world's commerce. A "magic shop" can be a variety of things, depending on the style of the GM and players:

-- In a low magic setting: a shop where potions, "1-use" items, familiars and spell components are for sale.

-- Mid to high: wondrous items brought in by adventurers; magic treasure seized from households, tombs or treasuries by those in power; unique items hand-crafted by expert magic users.

The idea of a place that sells magic items is infused with any "spirit" D&D may possess - whether or not the magic in your campaign is rare or commonplace, it does exist - and that which is in demand will always be for sale.

The mundane aspects of life always bring greater flavor to fantasy than the fantastic.

 

[Victim]

Magic item security is somewhat self solving. The only way to make good items is to be a powerful caster type. Same thing for accurately identifying them. So an item seller either is a powerful caster type or has connections to them. They'll have ways of dealing all but the most exceptional thieves. Especially if there's some organization like the Arcane Order or House Cannith (they're why all prices are pretty much fixed ) involved in the trade. I mean, those kinds of people can track you down across long distances and summon fiends to torture you. On a timeless plane or demiplane, so it lasts forever.

That being said, I also think that magic item "shops" wouldn't keep all that much in inventory and instead go by commisions. Keep some potions and wands (mainly cure sticks) around since they don't cost too much to make and the demand is pretty universal. But high end permanent items are too expensive in terms of opportunity cost to be sitting on self. That gold and XP could most likely be put to better use. There might be a piece items sitting around - showpieces, stuff that hasn't been recycled yet, items made on now defunct deals, or fairly low level items etc - but the most important part of the store is the guy who can make or get items.

 

[hong]

Aye, but the base assumption of many of the comments seems to be something analogous to a merchant at a counter with a huge laundry list of magic items

Said comments are based on faulty assumptions, then.

 

[MerricB]

That being said, I also think that magic item "shops" wouldn't keep all that much in inventory and instead go by commisions. Keep some potions and wands (mainly cure sticks) around since they don't cost too much to make and the demand is pretty universal. But high end permanent items are too expensive in terms of opportunity cost to be sitting on self. That gold and XP could most likely be put to better use. There might be a piece items sitting around - showpieces, stuff that hasn't been recycled yet, items made on now defunct deals, or fairly low level items etc - but the most important part of the store is the guy who can make or get items.

Indeed.

Mind you...

"Pick up this +5 vorpal sword! Only one previous owner!" (Died in an encounter with a rust monster... what a way to go )

I use the commission method a lot in my games; although I sometimes work out what crafters are available, in a place like the Free City of Greyhawk, there tend to be enough for the PCs need.

Cheers!

 

[Hussar]

Not this topic again...

Magic Item Shops do not wreck the spirit of D&D, but they do wreck the spirit of a large percentage of D&D settings including all of those that are loosely based on medieval/early modern culture, and all of those which lean toward heroic high fantasy, and all of those which lean toward Heroic Age pre-history.

I have in my campaign allowed potions and scrolls to be purchased in small amounts from alchemists, churches, and wizards but IMO if you go much beyond that magic items cease to be magical and wonderous, and players cease to feel like they've accomplished something important when finding a powerful magical treasure.

Funnily enough, I was watching Discovery and they were talking about the trade in "magic" relics throughout the ages. Middle Ages and, indeed, Dark Ages merchants traded in artifacts quite commonly. Some cities would compete briskly to buy authentic relics to be housed within the cities.

The idea of magic shops, or at least commercial magic is well grounded historically.

 

[MerricB]

Funnily enough, I was watching Discovery and they were talking about the trade in "magic" relics throughout the ages. Middle Ages and, indeed, Dark Ages merchants traded in artifacts quite commonly. Some cities would compete briskly to buy authentic relics to be housed within the cities.

The idea of magic shops, or at least commercial magic is well grounded historically.

Percy - "Behold! I have here the finger of our Lord. Baldrick, you look surprised.."

Baldrick-"I am. I thought they only came in packs of ten!"