Do Monsters know about a Fighter's Combat Challenge?

Tuft said:
How about when the Fighter multiclasses into Wizard and marks everybody in a Blast 3 area with his at-will Thunderous Blast every turn? What differs that blast from the Wizard's one? ;)
Well, you know, at that point the explanation magic is pretty effective.
 

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Exactly.

If the monster refuses to shift because he doesn't want to be hit, that means the fighters class ability is working as intended.
 

Tuft said:
The important thing is whether the monsters knows of the consequences of the mark:

(A) Do they know about the interrupt attacks?
(B) Do they know that the Wizard still is the squshier and more easilly killed target, even when the -2 of the mark is applied?

The thing is, I suspect that the DM's choice here will make a large difference in gameplay...

(A) Yes (more below)
(B) Depends on the monster. If it is smart enough to know the difference between wizards and fighters, or at least the difference between scalemail and robes, then Yes, otherwise No.

As for knowing the consequences of a mark, the answer is easy if you apply simple deduction.

Either a combat challenge is magical, or it is not.

If it is magical, then it must work like magical powers, and the rule about knowing you are affected by a power should apply.

I think most of us would agree that it is not magical.

So, if it is not magical, then how does the fighter do it? Clearly, not by standing still and silently willing the combat challenge into effect. Much more likely he is getting in the monster's way, leaning in and bullying the monster, making himself into an obstacle.

Because of this, the fighter is basically using Aid Another to add +2 to the AC of his allies - he is interfering with the monster, making it harder for the monter to accurately attack anyone else. But, because he is making himself the target, any interference with the monster's attacks is offset by the fact that the fighter is in the monster's face and making himself an easier target - hence no net effect to the fighter's AC.

And, at the same time, by threatening the monster and putting himself in harm's way, the fighter is obviously in ideal striking range. Any monster with enough intelligence to understand even rudimentary combat tactics will realize that moving away will leave it exposed to that imposing, intimidating fighter.

Even dogs understand the rudimentary tactics of fighting as a pack, of not turning your back or your belly toward the foe, of flanking and striking from behind, of wounding the legs so the foe can't flee, and of going for critical hits, like the throat, to bring down larger foes. That's enough combat sense to know when a foe is imposing itself on you and making you vulnerable to an attack unless you face that foe and deal with it first.

So, yes, unless you're fighting something very mindless, like a slug or a fish, you should expect the monster knows what will happen if it ignores the challenge. Presumably, even brainless skeletons or mindless automatons are infused with enough magic (whatever magic animates them) to make simple decisions that improve their ability to perform whatever task they were animated to do - after all, they were almost certainly animated for combat purposes, to be guards or to be shock troops or weapons of war.
 

Keep in mind, the monsters and creatures live in a world defined by these rules. They don't have to "learn" about a specific Fighter's "mark" ability any more than you need to "learn" what happens when you step in front of a red car vs. a blue car.

The DnD 4e world just "works that way" so any sentient being in that world understands that those who specialize in swordplay are extremely dangerous to try and shift around. If a fighter has challenged you and you are nearby, he's going to attack you if you attack his ally.
 

here's the problem with this- enemies know they're marked. The mark is separate from the combat challenge. You smack an enemy and they know- I got smacked cause I'm marked and I did X. If you assume the enemies know this as soon as they're marked, then you should also tell the players that if you are bloodied, this guy will hit you harder (troll) or the green dragon has ongoing acid damage on you, you are vulnerable to mind poison.

Yes, it's a pain for the DM that each group of enemies must discover the players abilities themselves, but it's only fair that it goes both ways.
 

Saeviomagy said:
Monsters knowing the impact of a mark makes the mark more powerful.

As a fighter, I would want my foes to know the penalties for defying my mark - after all, it's what makes me do my job.

No, it makes you less powerful.

There are two options for the marked.

1. Continue what it was doing before and take the penalty

2. Attack the fighter and not take the penalty.

So long as the creature is intelligent it will choose what it thinks is the better of the two options at any given time. When the enemy knows more information about what is and isn't a good option his ability to make the best decision increases.

Now, what is best for him might also be what you want(attacking the fighter to not take the penalty), but he is still making the choice and it still has a beneficial effect for him which is by necessity a negative effect for you and your side.
 

VannATLC said:
Personally, I rule that most animals that aren't vermin are also aware.

My dog is cunning enough to know that when I'm watching her, she can't steal my food. She waits till I look away.

I had a friend who tried to keep her cat off the kitchen counter. Then my friend was on the phone (this was before cordless phones) and the cat jumped up on the counter, safely out of reach of my tethered friend! :)
 

Magic Markers!

On the subject of magic marking, my dragonborn fighter has multiclassed wizard (for rituals really) when he uses his breath or thunderwave each encounter it goes a bit like this

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Player: right I'm gonna use dragonbreath to cover these 9 squares, which should get those 3 kobolds in it.

Player (as character): Vash breathes in quickly exhaling a freezing cloud of ice and pure cold air....[some rolls later]

DM: One of the dragon headed beings freezes in place and teeters backwards falling to the ground (he's out of the fight) the other two have slight layer of frost on their weapons/hide (you do damage to them)

Player: Vash knocks his sword and shield together giving out a menacing stare to the frosty looking kobolds in front of him. (those two kobolds I just hit get marked as well for their troubles)

----------------------------------------------------------------

I think that works as a nice description, thunderwave I just describe as a lightning breath attack instead, with a few gestures and magical mumbles before hand. Other taunts include quickly running the characters tongue over the flat of the blade, pointing towards his enemies and roaring out a challenge and also the Neo-esque beckoning with his hand.

My thoughts on the original context of the post is that the monsters should know all status changes and effects of powers and class features.
Q:Should the monsters know that the fighters used his combat challenge for the round as well?
A:sure the fighters struck a blow at one of your allies with his attention distracted you carefully retreat/maneouver around him, but if you move as normal your still providing the oppurtunity to get attacked again.
 

Ah, the fairness argument.

Life's not fair. Games aren't fair. There, that settled it.

Seriously though, I can see the point about letting players know if there are rider conditions attached to whatever smacks them (troll extra damage for bloodied foes). But then again, as the dm I am not inherently interested in fairness.

Fair play is often a good thing and without fairness players become disgruntled, but strictly speaking, fairness is not my goal. My goal is to help frame a compelling story. If that means that I play by a slightly different set of rules than the players are using then so be it.

My definition of fairness has more to do with "is every pc helped/hindered equally" rather than "does the mechanic apply evenly throughout the world". The latter is if the rules framework is the world (which I oppose) and the former is about fairness around the table (which I favor).

The game itself has no reason to be fair to players. In fact, it has obvious motivations to be UNfair. In a strictly fair interpretation of the rules the pc's die- frequently, horribly, and often for silly reasons making heroic deeds and fun stories rare.
 

The best argument for creatures knowing is that then the DM doesn't have to attempt a complicated double-think against himself. "They know" makes a much less complicated blanket rule for actually running monsters.
 

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