Do negative levels reduce caster level?

[Nail]

Ah, I see that Patryn was responding to the initial OP question, not the follow-up.

My faith is restored.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

My faith is restored.

Blessed art thou, my son.

 

[FEADIN]

Negative levels don't change your real level, if you're a 9lvl wizard with one negative level you're stiil a 9 lvl wizard, only the spell power is affected:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard’s Intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Wizard.
CASTER LEVEL
A spell’s power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to your class level in the class you’re using to cast the spell.
You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.
In the event that a class feature, domain granted power, or other special ability provides an adjustment to your caster level, that adjustment applies not only to effects based on caster level (such as range, duration, and damage dealt) but also to your caster level check to overcome your target’s spell resistance and to the caster level used in dispel checks (both the dispel check and the DC of the check).
Nothing about real level here.

 

[frankthedm]

I do think this is one of those times a wizard would be chucking 4d6 fireballs.

 

[Infiniti2000]

That would be the consequence, if the negative levels would directly reduce caster level, yes.

I'm not really proposing it, tho, I'm asking about opinions, what would or should be right.

I'm more leaning towards the second option, that is not reducing caster level itself, now.

Spells per day is not based on caster level, however. Spells per day is based on wizard level. If spells per day were based on caster level, then a wizard 5/sorcerer 4 could cast 5th level spells, but she can't. The only affect to the number of spells that can be cast is the loss of the highest spell slot.

 

[Thanee]

Huh?

A Wizard5/Sorcerer4 has caster level 5/4, not 9 (since caster level is based on class level, too).

And you do need a high enough caster level (spell level x2 -1) to actually cast a spell (see above quote, which at least implies this).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Infiniti2000]

A Wizard5/Sorcerer4 has caster level 5/4, not 9 (since caster level is based on class level, too).

I agree, but I was making a point. I suppose it's too confusing so let me toss it out and try a different point: practiced spellcaster. Does a wiz5/fighter 4 with PS get 5th level spells? No, his class level is only 5. His caster level is 9, however. But, you tried to say earlier that the spells per day is based on caster level, and I'm trying to show that that is wrong.

And you do need a high enough caster level (spell level x2 -1) to actually cast a spell (see above quote, which at least implies this).

Agreed. However, the negative level does not reduce your CL for all purposes, just for some. Obviously, it's arguable, but I believe that the CL is not modifed for purposes of reading the class table -- it's not a calculation or die roll.

 

[Thanee]

I agree, but I was making a point.

Ok. I don't quite see what it has to do with the question, tho.

If you have Practiced Spellcaster (twice for good measure), then you are a Wiz5/Sor4 with caster level 9/8. You obviously can only cast 3rd/2nd level spells.

This doesn't change the fact, however, that you cannot cast a 3rd level wizard spell with a caster level below 5.

You seem to confuse this part, that you need a minimum caster level to cast a spell with that caster level would be used to determine what spells a character can cast. These are two different things (and the latter one is false, too).

However, as I see it (after having thought about it a bit), this doesn't happen here (with the negative levels). If the character gains enough negative levels to lower the caster level to 3 (while still retaining 3rd level slots, not likely for the one with Practiced Spellcaster, but anyways ), then the 3rd level spell would still be cast at full caster level, but with a penalty to the effect, which reduces the effectively used caster level (for spell resistance checks, range, duration, effect, etc) to 3.

Obviously, it's arguable, but I believe that the CL is not modifed for purposes of reading the class table -- it's not a calculation or die roll.

That might be a valid argumentation. In general I agree with the conclusion, as said above.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

This doesn't change the fact, however, that you cannot cast a 3rd level wizard spell with a caster level below 5.

Consider an item - we'll call it the Rod of Wintry Snows - that, when held, gave you a benefit similar to the Chaos domain - "cast [Cold] spells at +1 caster level" - and a penalty using similar language - "cast [Fire] spells at -1 caster level."

While holding the rod, can a 5th-level wizard cast Fireball?

 

[irdeggman]

Is this discussion moving towards what should be or what the RAW says?

The RAW is pretty specific on what the effects of negative levels are on spell casters and goes into decent detail on what -1 CL means in this case.