D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Zardnaar]

I don't see any real evidence of this. It's very common to encounter complaints of inconsistency in D&D experiences. And rather than reliability, the game is said to depend very heavily on the particular GM who is running a session/campaign.

This. Group cohesion/DM is way more important than edition.

 

[Zardnaar]

I'm sure D&D sales will plateau at some point because nothing grows forever. But saying it's going to happen someday is kind of meaningless. It could have hit that point now, it may hit it in a decade or even two (although that last is unlikely). Either way, people that claim the game is in decline will just say "See! I told you so!" The picture is also muddied because you don't need to buy physical books any more.

But even if it maintains status quo and retains approximately the same number of players it does now, if it even drops a bit, it would still be quite successful for the TTRPG market.

Personally I think it platesuedfew years ago.

Great unknown is if 2024 reaches same heights after initial sales.

 

[Oofta]

As far as success and whatnot ... I'm done.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

...it did take off, for a good while.

Again, what does a game need to do to count as a success to you? Sell as well as D&D 5e?

From a business perspective success isn't black and white like that.

For me, as a small business owner, if I have profit that pays all the obligations plus $1, that is one version of success. If that business pays all the obligations plus $10,000 that is a different version of success.

Here it's the same. 3e could be successful, and most certainly was, without being as successful as 5e. 5e may very well be more successful.

I bring this up because just labeling each as a success or not simplifies the comparison too much, and loses a lot of the nuance. There is much to learn from the different gradients of success.

Here we have another example. In retail, cleaning and organization, like keeping products pulled forward on the shelf, can lead to an increase in sales of up to 15% pretty easily. You may have a store that is successful without that being practiced. If you treat success as binary, you may never notice that potential to improve and therefore end up worse off.

In WotC's case, treating each edition as just a binary choice of success or not, removes much of the ability to improve the appeal and, by extension, the profit of each subsequent edition.

 

[Lanefan]

Next up - reliability and consistency don’t count as elements of good design.

They do, however, count as elements of good implementation of a design; and that's an important factor.

 

[Lanefan]

Then we sit in very different places.

The discussion was on the popularity and sucess of 5E being due primarily to its design. I disagreed that is not its primary source, and there are in fact several contributing factors. IIRC (though I could be wrong), I think someone even said something about it being the most popular and successful edition yet. There is no arguing that simply due to the raw numbers we have, but claiming its design is the primary cause is up for debate when so many other factors add to it.

Also, 5E's success compared to what? To something like 2E, which was also successful. However, 2E did not have all the benefits 5E is (and has been) banking on regularly: more widespread marketing, influencers, commonplace availability, disccusion boards, forum, the Internet explosion in general, video game saturation for fantasy, acceptance of RPGing, etc.

2e had everything going for it and more that 1e had, ten years earlier, and yet wasn't nearly the Big Deal that 1e was for a few years in the early 80s.

Early-80s 1e is a far better comparable to today's 5e, with the main difference being that 5e has managed to sustain its mass-appeal popularity while 1e frittered it away after just a few years.

To a much lesser degree, but in some cases none whatsoever, 2E did have these things. My point was just this: if 2E, with its design, had all the advantages 5E has NOW, it would probably rival it or maybe even surpass it in popularity and success. It also had great design, improving on (what was widely recognized as) the flaws of 1E.

Had 1e had all of 5e's advantages in its favour there probably never would have been a 2e.

Say what you like about WotC, they're far - as in light years - better at marketing and sustaining hype than TSR ever was.

 

[ezo]

Say what you like about WotC, they're far - as in light years - better at marketing and sustaining hype than TSR ever was.

LOL no doubt about that!

 

[Warpiglet-7]

Are you doing a review? As far as reviews go, I base my decision on the reviewer and what they say. A lot of movie critics evaluate what they see based on criteria that I simply don't care about and the movies they recommend bore me to death. They throw around words (much like wine Sommeliers just make up terms to describe wine) that they learned that sound amazing. But end of the day? I go to movies to be entertained, not to analyze how the movie was shot or the deep undercurrents of tension. I'll take popular and increases in box office after the first showings over a lot of critic reviews. Because people have indicated with their time and money that the movie is worthwhile at least to them. Aggregate opinions are more important than individual opinions.

Popularity doesn't mean I'll like a movie, I thought the Matrix movies were kind of stupid, but it will get me to give it a second look. Lot more than some arthouse film that will make me fall asleep halfway through.

How is the consumer using the product? What do THEY want?

I like to drink coors light. It is good if I am thirsty. I can swill on them over a game session without getting wrecked. It’s smooth and cool and 50% of t he time it works every time.

But when I read beer advocate etc I see I am not supposed to like it, really. “It smells of adjuncts and chemicals and grass with a cat food finish.”

Some of their heavier beers with strong ABV are wonderful sometimes in small quantities. I like them. But not for the purpose of a fun Saturday night game or when I BBQ.

I think there is a lot of that going on with D&D. My friends and I are making threats to enemies like Conan and chucking dice to cheers or groans and some people are talking about the intricacies of forge speak and agency and…

That is TOTALLY fine. Its just not how the majority of the consumer base (as far as I have seen) views it.

I really believe the individual is righteous in liking what they like even as more people might like one thing better than another. It just gets maddening when you are told you are wrong or misguided in your preference for current offerings, old school stuff and everything in between.

Many times things are good for a purpose but not all purposes and

For some people the good old days were the good days. Others not so much. Or in my case old and new have things I like even though I have settled into 5e for the long term.

 

[Daztur]

One reason I'm not so sure about that - 5e is REALLY popular with the younger crowd, couple examples (that blew my mind as an older gamer):

When my son was in elementary school, the D&D club was so popular that 1) they needed to find a bigger room than they had initially assigned 2) There had to be a waiting list because there weren't enough people to supervise/run it initially. My wife (who was on the committee that supervised the clubs) had to field calls from parents begging to get their kids in. Also, the club had about a 55/45 boys/girls ratio.

My son is now in high school, It's a big high school (just under 4k students). The D&D club is one of the (if not the) biggest clubs in the school. And again, it's not quite 50/50 boys/girls, but it's close. Frankly, I wish they'd try/offer some other games, but, apparently, that's not even up for discussion.

Point is, kids seem to be getting introduced to it early and staying with it.

Yeah, where I live D&D isn't popular at all so I always get my mind blown hearing how popular it is with kids these days. I'm just not sure that WotC (or any of us old people) really has their finger on the pulse of what kids want and a lot of people at WotC don't quite grasp what made 5e popular in the first place so I don't think this level of popularity with D&D will continue, but a lot of those kids will be playing D&D for decades to come, just like 80's kids during that surge of D&D popularity.

 

[Oofta]

How is the consumer using the product? What do THEY want?

I like to drink coors light. It is good if I am thirsty. I can swill on them over a game session without getting wrecked. It’s smooth and cool and 50% of t he time it works every time.

But when I read beer advocate etc I see I am not supposed to like it, really. “It smells of adjuncts and chemicals and grass with a cat food finish.”

Some of their heavier beers with strong ABV are wonderful sometimes in small quantities. I like them. But not for the purpose of a fun Saturday night game or when I BBQ.

I think there is a lot of that going on with D&D. My friends and I are making threats to enemies like Conan and chucking dice to cheers or groans and some people are talking about the intricacies of forge speak and agency and…

That is TOTALLY fine. Its just not how the majority of the consumer base (as far as I have seen) views it.

I really believe the individual is righteous in liking what they like even as more people might like one thing better than another. It just gets maddening when you are told you are wrong or misguided in your preference for current offerings, old school stuff and everything in between.

Many times things are good for a purpose but not all purposes and

For some people the good old days were the good days. Others not so much. Or in my case old and new have things I like even though I have settled into 5e for the long term.

Which is why there are different types of beverages and different games to play. On the other hand Elkhorn beer (a localish brew a friend of mine) never gained a wider audience because it was, shall we say, an acquired taste. Nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, I've said all I have to say on this topic.