Do ranged attacks break the hit point mechanic?

[Ranger REG]

I beg to differ. Your hit points still goes down, which takes a long time to heal in a modern-day setting without any magical or supernatural healing.

If you wish to do a semi-real simulation, adapt the same method that Rainbow Six uses, everytime you get shot, roll a Fort Save vs. DC = total damage of attack. No need for hit points.

But this is a role-playing game, and like many such games they want to try to emulate stories -- from books, movies, films, etc. -- of heroes who are able to get out of the jam, or stay alive longer in battle than the most average joes, while there is still a risk involved against the heroes to make it thrillingly exciting.

As for the post above, if you want, make a houserule to use Reflex save as your defense roll vs attack roll ... drop the Defense bonus (although that will suck as combat-oriented soldiers don't have a good Reflex save), but in the case of the poisoned arrow, it's a double whammy. Assuming the damage from the arrow itself exceed you Mas value, not only do your roll a Fort Save to prevent going down from the trauma of the arrow and dying, you roll a Fort Save again because of the successfully delivery of the poison (on said arrow) into your health system.

 

[Atridis]

The best illustration of Hit Points that I've ever seen is "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

 

[Zaruthustran]

Remember that in D&D you're at full functionality until your HP reach zero or less.

So if you're imagining a gun battle just imagine that no one actually catches a bullet until HP = zero or less. Zero means you got the classic movie bullet wound: in the shoulder, with no shock or other trauma. You're slowed down but can still squeeze a trigger/can still tell the hero to "go on without me!" Less means you took a bullet like most normal people take bullets: you're down and out and going to die unless something extraordinary happens.

I find James Bond movies to be good examples of hit points. James Bond runs along some catwalk while dozens of guys shoot at him = he's taking lots of HP damage, even though he's not actually hit. It's only when he's surrounded, in single-digit HP (complete with scruffed up clothes and maybe a small cut on his cheek or lip) that he gives up the fight and starts talking.

I do agree that melee is easier to imagine--especially with the advent of Touch attacks. If you roll over the Touch AC but less than the full AC you've clocked the guy solid but failed to penetrate his armor. That's cool, realistic, and fun.

-z

 

[Thresher]

Having crawled out of a couple of car wrecks, several motorbike accidents and one or 2 pub brawls myself, then spending a few years in an emergency service dragging people out of wrecks, fire, flood and other disasters. I can safely say that the human body can soak up a surprising amount of physical punishment before it carks it. Some of the worst injuries Ive seen people live through arent your typical 200kg, 7ft tall biker types of people either so size, fitness and body mass didnt seem to have much to do with it. Especially women for some reason, they live through damn near anything it seems!
People are a lot tougher than many give them credit for, I dunno why, Im not a doctor.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Of course, seeing HP primarily as avoiding damage, it doesn't make much sense to base HP on Con. Even stranger is the idea of a cure light wounds spell giving a character back "damage avoidance".

Any way we want to look at it, HP are just a construct to make the game more enjoyable - RL combat is far too deadly to be used as our model (unless we want to roll up new characters every third combat).

 

[Pbartender]

Basing it on Con is just fine if you look at it this way... HPs measure not so much your skill at dodging severe damage, but how long you can continue dodging that damage without tiring out. Look at it from an endurance perspective rather than an agility perspective.

When you start running low on hit points, you are winded, tired, weary, and battered (once again, think of Indiana Jones, James Bond or any movie starring Bruce Willis). Cure spells would relieve some of that exhaustion and allow you to continue the fight, slightly refreshed.

 

[nopantsyet]

Good thread. I like the topic as I have tried some alternate methods of handling damage. I think in the end I like the idea of an alternate damage system better than the real thing. Despite the lack of realism, I find it to be a convenient system allows people to roleplay their damage as they like, but with a clear, concise mechanic for adjudicating it. I'll probably try other systems in the future, but I'll never feel bad if I revert back to good old HPs.

Specifically re: ranged attacks, I think of it as an aggregate of physical stamina and stress-threshold as well as wounds themselves. A quick dive to avoid an arrow could take as much out of you as a punch in the stomach. Just in a different way. In the end, you might die because dehydration weakened you to the point of collapse when your enemy executed a coup de grace.

And I'll treat it like that with my players as well. I'll tell them that a dire wolf lunges at them but they manage to brush his attack to the side, then the obligatory. "You take 8 HP."

 

[Celtavian]

re

If you read up on combat, you find that people have survived some serious hits. There have been guys that survived shreddings by machine guns, artillery explosions, etc, etc.

There is no guarantee that a person is going to be struck in a vital area. For example, a fighter being struck by three arrows: One arrow in the side abdominal muscle, one didn't quite punch through the chainmail coif under his full plate armor, and one stuck him in the shin but didn't penetrate the bone. Those hits probably won't kill or hinder him while he is pumped up on adrenaline. He can keep on fighting.

You seriously overestimate the killing power of bullets or projectiles. Thats not to say that they aren't deadly, but a person struck in non-vital areas can survive quite a few hits depending on the weapon and the skill of the user.

The big problem with D&D and a horde of crossbowmen is not hit points, but armor class. A horde of first level or even fifth level crossbowmen are probably not going to hit a high level fighter. The easy way to deal with this problem is to eliminate magic from your campaign. If you want a tough gritty campaign where even a 20th level fighter has to worry about 1st level crossbowmen or archers, then don't give out any magic armor. He'll worry.

I have no problem imagining a fighter-type person avoiding projectiles. There are plenty of real life precedents for it.

 

[S'mon]

The big problem with D&D and a horde of crossbowmen is not hit points, but armor class. A horde of first level or even fifth level crossbowmen are probably not going to hit a high level fighter. The easy way to deal with this problem is to eliminate magic from your campaign. If you want a tough gritty campaign where even a 20th level fighter has to worry about 1st level crossbowmen or archers, then don't give out any magic armor. He'll worry.

Well, full plate, large shield and DEX 13 gives AC 21 - 1st level warriors might _still_ only hit on a 20! I find that 'low fantasy' settings actually require tougher mooks as well as less magic-heavy heroes - ie veteran guards need to be 5th level warriors rather than 1st, to threaten even a magic-less Fighter PC.

I agree entirely that there's plenty of real life cases of people who keep fighting despite serious injury, sometimes being shot 20 times or more. If there's a problem with D&D it's more that it's _impossible_ to kill the hero with the crossbow bolt, not that it probably won't kill him. Another problem is that weapon damage doesn't scale right, especially for larger missile weapons like heavy crossbows and even ballistae, the damage is pathetic compared to lighter weapons. While there are plenty of real world tales of knights who keep fighting with a dozen shortbow arrows in them, no one keeps fighting with a dozen ballista bolts in them!

 

[Tonguez]

Basing it on Con is just fine if you look at it this way... HPs measure not so much your skill at dodging severe damage, but how long you can continue dodging that damage without tiring out. Look at it from an endurance perspective rather than an agility perspective.

When you start running low on hit points, you are winded, tired, weary, and battered (once again, think of Indiana Jones, James Bond or any movie starring Bruce Willis). Cure spells would relieve some of that exhaustion and allow you to continue the fight, slightly refreshed.

Yep I agree and I've always considered the Dex bonus to AC to be the abstraction of 'Dodge ability'

In my mind HP is partially absorbing the blow and mainly Fatigue (Physical and Mental) an experienced battle hardened fighter has more physical and mental stamina to keep going even when there bleeding from multiple wounds, has an arrow in the shoulder and a split skull