Pathfinder 1E Do Traps (almost always) Surprise?

[Starfox]

Are you surprised if you walk into a trap you do not know is there? Naturally, if you trigger a known trap, you would not be surprised.

The general surprise rule is that you are surprised if the opponent knows you are there and you do not know that the enemy is there, so traps would seem to surprise most of the time. But can traps be said to be aware of or know of anything, lacking a Wisdom score?

The Trap Sense ability of rogues and barbarians give Dodge bonuses against traps, so trap sense would almost always be negated if traps could surprise. But these classes also have uncanny dodge, so they do not lose their Dexterity (and Dodge) bonus to AC. But I bet there is some archetype or prestige class out there that has trap sense without having uncanny dodge.

Opinions? Reasoning? Experience with official play/errata?

This thread on the paizo forums seem to think you are surprised by traps.

This thread is much more dubious about it.

 

[Stormonu]

I think this is overthinking the issue. Traps act differently than combat encounters; no surprise is involved because its not relevant.

 

[howandwhy99]

Traps have triggers with results creatures can sense before their final result and do something about. Traps that don't are simply environmental effects that are unavoidable. Neither roll initiative, so a creature's initiative doesn't matter either. Same with attack rolls. The traps aren't adjusting their actions to account for the creature's defensive behavior. Traps are when creatures roll Saving Throws to attempt to avoid (or elect to accept) them.

If traps could surprise you, and in a way they do, you wouldn't make a Saving Throw. You would allow them a round to attack, which they can't do.

 

[Kursk]

I think this is overthinking the issue. Traps act differently than combat encounters; no surprise is involved because its not relevant.

This.

 

[Tuft]

If traps could surprise you, and in a way they do, you wouldn't make a Saving Throw. You would allow them a round to attack, which they can't do.

From http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/traps :
"Traps that attack with arrows, sweeping blades, and other types of weaponry make normal attack rolls, ... "

 

[Starfox]

I think this is overthinking the issue.

BE WARNED! The particular page this links to is office-safe, but the rest of the comic definitely is NOT, and you'll be passing an adult-warning page on the way that is not itself office safe. DO THIS AT HOME, AND NO KIDS!

http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/

But yeah, overthinking and traps - so spot-on!

I think you guys are right about the whole over-think angle, and that Trap Sense should just apply, sensible or not. The trouble is they made it a Dodge bonus when it should have been untyped. An untyped bonus would have avoided the issue.

 

[Tuft]

Well, you could use it as a kind of Turing test...

As Baldor the Brave crosses square X, a crossbow dart shoots out of a tiny hole in the wall. Was it a trap, or an orc hidden behind a murder hole with a crossbow and a delayed action?

We can determine this by simply observing whether Baldor gets a dodge bonus or not.

Agreed, it kind of belongs with detecting evil using soft cushions, but still...

 

[captainembewrath]

Well it kind of depends on how you define "surprise" really. When I have a character going through a dungeon he (or she) fully expects there to be traps of some kind. It's never as easy as walk in and walk out. Now as to knowing what kind of trap to expect and always being on guard that's another story.

 

[argentum]

I dont think that they would surprise and i'm in agreement with what people have said. But to add a twist, do people like making traps more obvious so that in addition to just making a roll the PC can try to figure out how to avoid the trap? So not just have spinning blades swipe out and damage a player, but have them spinning a in a pattern that could be navigated be someone nimble enough?

 

[argentum]

I dont think that they would surprise and i'm in agreement with what people have said. But to add a twist, do people like making traps more obvious so that in addition to just making a roll the PC can try to figure out how to avoid the trap? So not just have spinning blades swipe out and damage a player, but have them spinning a in a pattern that could be navigated be someone nimble enough?