Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

[Avatar of the North]

Wiz5/Palemaster 1/Ur Priest 1/master of Shrouds 1/True Necromancer 3/Mystic Theurge 10

That combo just screams broken to me.

This one is icky too bard 4/ranger 8/mystic theurge 8

because of those combos i find the class really broken

 

[Bendris Noulg]

He heals. Worse than a cleric.
He buffs. Worse than a cleric.
He bams. Worse than a mage.

No... You don't get it.

Not worse enough. Not worse enough. Not worse enough. As clearly stated, and completely undeniable, as this class increases in level, the "worse" becomes "insignificant". That's the issue. After 20th level, "insignificant" becomes "who can tell?". That's another issue.

The fact that he's better than a multiclassed wizard/cleric is immaterial (because ANYTHING is better than a wiz/cle multi).

Anything's better than a Commoner with Skill Focus (Dirt Farming), but so what?

The fact that he combines the two in a more effective way than (say) geomancer is also immaterial, because a geomancer combines the two in a completely different way.

It's not "different" that's the issue. It's the "more effective" that's the issue. It's more effective than the Geomancer. It's more effective than the True Necromancer. Hell, it's simply more effective overall. That's the problem.

And thank you for finally admitting that it's "more effective". Now we can actually make some progress in this discussion.

It's like saying still spell is a broken feat, because someone who wants to create a heavily-armoured arcane caster virtually HAS to have it.

You could take Armored Caster from the Netbook of Feats. Or even just the 3.5 Bard.

He only HAS to have it because he's creating such a specialised character. It doesn't mean that the feat is essential for every character. Likewise, this PrC is ONLY essential for someone who wants to produce a wiz/cle multiclass. If you want a straight arcane blaster, then it's worthless or worse.

Actually, with this class, there's no reason not to be a Cleric/Wizard. You get more spells, Epic Spellcasting isn't delayed, and, as you put it, it's "more effective".

And keep epic out of it. 3 caster levels STILL matter at epic, insofar as anything matters at epic levels.
Hell, why don't we just say that taking 20 levels of wizard is pointless? After all, epic levels are effectively infinite, so that 20 levels of caster are diminished to nothing eventually.

Not at all. This class drastically effects Casting Level checks to overcome Spell Resistance, and it does so for two forms of magic. And this is in addition to everything else it gives (more spells, more buffs, more power). By 25th Level, this character does nothing worse than a Cleric or a Mage, but it continues to remain "more effective".

 

[green slime]

For the sake of Pete...

You cannot judge the merit of one PrC based on the fact that you can min/max with OTHER PrCs, which may or may not be allowed in a campaign, from books that may or may not be available to a gaming group. Which of the PrC is then the broken one?

The DM is WELL within his rights to prevent a player from taking a broken COMBINATION. I do not allow characters to munchkinise by grabbing a mixed bag of PrCs. PrC are supposed to be a sign of commitment, IMC.

The first character is EVIL (BoVD PrC) and should be an NPC. YMMV. However, if you do allow such wierd matching and mixing of PrCs, there are many equally bad things you can do. Or you could just carry a bucket of snails...

The second character just sucks, IMO. 20th level character that casts spells as a 12th level bard (4th level Bard spells), and a 16th level ranger (4th level Ranger spells, 12th caster level), with a BAB of +15, AND 8d4+8d10+4d6 or 136hp MAX, 88hp using LGG (half HD +1), isn't really going to be a combat machine, or a spell machine. Just versatile. As it should be!

 

[Fenes 2]

Am I the only one who was glad that the 2E multiclass cleric/wizard was not viable anymore? The only one who did not think that there should be a way to have a caster multiclass without giving up something significant?

IMHO the cleric spell list, especially with domains, is so close to the arcane spell list that a cleric with the right domains could already cast a great deal of arcane spells, if not as effectively or often. And if you really, really want to cast fireball, the magic domain offers it through magic items.

 

[green slime]

Bendris Noulg postulated
...By 25th Level, this character does nothing worse than a Cleric or a Mage, but it continues to remain "more effective".

Not true. As I have pointed out before, either in this thread or the other in which you frequent, the MT should be getting fewer Epic level feats. We don't know, because the Epic progression of the MT has yet to be published. Should the MT switch back to a non-PrC class (wizard/cleric, however he chooses) he will still be suffering from 2 fewer Epic Level feats. Those feats are not to be ignored, and equate 2 spell levels, with bonus slots for high stat.

The lack of Epic feats will mean the Epic MT will fall behind even further in highest available spell slots.

You cannot claim that the MT is in anyway unbalanced at Epic level, without first seeing the Epic progression of the class. It is almost an irrelevant argument, as most games do not get to such heights, and the CORE rules only cover up to 20th level.

Seriously, if the only argument against the MT is that it is "powerful" at Epic level, well, I am not concerned.

 

[Technik4]

Bendris:

Keep the discussion confined to the realm of 20 levels. If this class is slightly overpowered at the height of its power, the only people that will experience it are those with very committed groups or those that start at higher levels. Not that is an excuse for bad game design (not that I think it is "bad" really, just slightly overpowered at the very highest level), it isn't, but I wouldnt have a problem with a player starting at level 1 aspire to be a theurgist.

But the theurge isnt fully a cleric or fully a wizard. His BAB is abysmal, worse than a cleric, and his bam spells are significantly worse than a wizard:

Youre fighting a CR appropriate for your level, the monster has SR. The single-classed wizard or cleric has (lets say) a 60% chance of affecting it with their spells, the theurge has a 45% chance. The single-classers get 3 more die of damage (up to max for the spell in question) which helps overcoming those elemental resistances creatures have at high levels.

Heal as well? Only at the highest level attainable, for the some odd 16 levels previously the theurge is about 3 die + 3 behind in healing, which is pretty significant. Granted, outside of combat healing the theurge wins with more slots to burn for healing, but in combat? When its a matter of life or death and your cure spell is that much weaker than a single-classed cleric? Lets not even get into the fact that you have less hp than a regular cleric, hence your own survivability is at question when you get close enough to TOUCH someone with a healing spell in combat.

Buff as well? Probably buffs better to be honest, this is the one strength of the class in addition to its inherent versatility, but its important to keep in mind that the theurges buffs (its strong point) are at a -3 to dispel checks compared to a single classed caster of their level. And they last 3 increments shorter.

Turn as well? Fight as well? Use a familiar as well? Have as many feats? No. No. No. No.

Have a lot more spells? Yes.

I think the pros outweigh the cons, this class is valid and not broken in my opinion. It does push the envelope for power, which will be interesting to see in the coming year(s) for future supplements and revisions.

Technik

 

[Larry Fitz]

So Theurgic magic is used by characters on the path to ascension? Well, it's not like this PrC had a prayer of magically appearing in any campaign of mine anyway, but ascension to what? A higher plane of wisdom and knowledge? Godhood? A really cool mystical set of stairs? I just hate the flavor of it. Bleh, yuck... phooie.... It screams munchkin to me, it really does. The combination of buffs, massive damage and healing spells just leaves me thinking this is for powergamers, and that's not a type of campaign i want to run. Yes you give up three levels of casting, which means you are alway one tier behind, but what is that? 5 or 6 Arcane Spells, 6 or 7 Divine ones (based on the difference between 7th and 10th level casters) for whichyou pick up and additional 20+ spells to cast per day, all of which are great compliments to your already existing repertoire because they do things you can't do right now.

I understand how they attempted to "balance" the character, but I don't care. This is not a balanced PrC, this is a fix for the way the mechanics of 3E emasculated multiclassing spellcasters. The problem for me lies in the idea of characters advancing in character levels instead of class levels. There are a lot good points to 3E which I think overshadow this shortcoming. If people want to fix the multiclassing problem, well, this is not the solution. It's inelegant and in WoTC's own description on the web "blurs the lines" between Arcane and Divine spellcasting. No thanks. Waiter! Check please!

 

[Larry Fitz]

There's no need to limit this to just the first 20 levels. You get to those levels in around two years of average playing, the game was designed that way... people on these boards however are not average players. Their campaigns last beyond 18-24 months so many of them will be playing epic levels in their campaigns.

 

[Technik4]

Epic

It was specifically mentioned that the mystic theurge's epic progression might surprise some people, and since we have no idea what it is, it seems unfair to judge it.

Also, IIRC you cannot take Epic Wizard levels until you have 20 wizard levels. A Mystic Theurge will lag 3 levels behind an epic wizard, who will gain more Epic Feats and therefore be more powerful, despite the theurge's access to 7th level divine spells.

The people on these boards are also a very small percentage of the actual d&d community. If they do print runs of 100,000 and there is lets just say 5,000 people on ENWORLD (generous I know) then we represent 5% of the entire community.

I know most people stat out characters ahead of time, but theres a big difference between drooling over a 20th level Mystic Theurge and earning one.

Technik

 

[green slime]

There's no need to limit this to just the first 20 levels. You get to those levels in around two years of average playing, the game was designed that way... people on these boards however are not average players. Their campaigns last beyond 18-24 months so many of them will be playing epic levels in their campaigns.

And yet the PHB, DMG, and MM limit themselves to 20 levels ISN'T a good reason to limit this discussion to a similar level? At least until we see what WotC has planned for Epic level progression for this PrC. What if the ELH had never come out? Would you still consider the pursuit of post-20 bliss and balance to be relevant to the discussion of a preview of a PrC from the DMG?