Do you let Magic Missiles destroy Mirror Images?

[Dannyalcatraz]

No need to be insultingly repetitive- we all understand that clearly figments are not creatures.

Historically, illusion spells in D&D are able to be targeted by attack spells- at least, those that are designed simply to do damage, and do not depend on a target having mental attributes. All that mattered was whether a caster could perceive the illusion and thus be sufficiently deceived by its apparent physical attributes to burn a spell targeting it.

Within the current rules, however, this is impossible since the statement "figment != creature" is true...a problem that didn't exist since 1) there were no such things as "figments" and 2) the default assumption in earlier ruleset was that illusionary creatures were targetable unless the caster could discern that his intended target was illusion- in which case, targeting the illusion became voluntary. (You could, for instance, still attack a projected image you knew to be such if you needed to.)

Under 3.X RAW, illusory creatures (except possibly shadow creatures) can't be targeted by spells at all.

The 3.X FAQ statement, in the context that there is no specific rule covering this, and fills the gap, restoring the game's historical targeting rule. If you can perceive the illusion, and you believe in the illusion, you can attack it with any attack spell.

 

[Li Shenron]

Yes or no?

Yes. I consider the caster as targetting the creature, and Mirror Image to redirect the missiles randomly towards one of the figment (or the real) but i don't treat it as having changed the target, which is still the creature.

 

[Thanee]

That's the function of errata.

Didn't you know that FAQ is the abbreviation of errata!?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hypersmurf]

No need to be insultingly repetitive- we all understand that clearly figments are not creatures.

Under 3.X RAW, illusory creatures (except possibly shadow creatures) can't be targeted by spells at all.

Right. So why do you say the rules are silent, when there is a rule for when you try to cast a spell on the wrong sort of target? That's as specific as it needs to get... X targets creatures, Y is not a creature, so when you cast X on Y, you see 'Spell Failure' on p171. That's not the rules being silent; that's the rules covering the exact situation under discussion.

Yes. I consider the caster as targetting the creature...

Then why does the spell description say "select from among indistinguishable targets", rather than "randomly redirected to one of the images"?

It's the attacker that chooses a target, not the spell...

-Hyp.

 

[the Jester]

Wow, I just discovered something that we played incorrectly throughout 1e.

After the above mention of the magic missile/mirror image interaction not working in 1e, I looked it up in my 1e PH, and lo and behold it appears that you can't use mm to 'pop' images in 1e- it must be a weapon.

HOWEVER... I also discoverd that in 1e, mirror image created 1-4 images... plus one per caster level.

Never knew that... and I played 1e extensively for years.

 

[Sejs]

Yes, I do let Magic Missle pop mirror images.

I do not allow things like Message to pop mirror images.

I don't particularly care about the semantic argument, I just run it how feels right.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So why do you say the rules are silent, when there is a rule for when you try to cast a spell on the wrong sort of target?

Illusions are meant to decieve. Illusions that appear to be creatures are intended to be interacted with as if they were real, and that includes combat targeting. They suck up attacks from fighters and spells from casters.

At least, up until 3.x RAW. I find it difficult to hang the changing of 20+ years of targeting rules on the figment/creature distinction, especially when there is no spell I can name that targets "illusion" or "illusory creature." And if you can't target illusory creatures with regular spells, you need spells that can target illusory creatures.

Why would someone want such a spell? Well, if you're a caster and your meat shields...er...fighter companions...are wasting their iterative attacks on an illusory Ogre Mage while the real foes approach from another front, all the jumping up and down and pointing in the world won't convince most warriors to turn their back on the creature they're fighting to face another threat. You'd need to show them by casting something at it...

And all you can throw at it currently is Dispel Magic?

Not a good situation...especially if you're wrong about it being illusory.

Instead, the old rules allowed you to burn your attack spells, possibly dispelling the illusion, possibly doing damage...and you still had the Dispel option.

 

[Legildur]

Instead, the old rules allowed you to burn your attack spells, possibly dispelling the illusion, possibly doing damage...and you still had the Dispel option.

Actually, if you look at Jester's post above, you'll see that in 1E only weapon attacks were effective in destroying the Mirror Image images.

Besides, I always pictured the spell as being particular effective against archers and other missile weapons (as well as melee attacks).

However, 2E (as a second level spell) says "When an image is struck by a melee or missile attack, magical or otherwise, it disappears, but any other existing images remain until struck."

Now, whether you consider a Magic Missile to be a missile attack in 2E is probably another whole debate.

 

[MarkB]

Then why does the spell description say "select from among indistinguishable targets", rather than "randomly redirected to one of the images"?

It's the attacker that chooses a target, not the spell...

-Hyp.

If the targets are indistiguishable, how does the spell distinguish them? How can the spell simply fail, on account of not being targetted against a creature, if the thing it is targetted at is indistinguishable from a creature?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Illusions are meant to decieve. Illusions that appear to be creatures are intended to be interacted with as if they were real, and that includes combat targeting. They suck up attacks from fighters and spells from casters.

Illusions can still suck up spells - if you try to cast a spell that targets a creature on it, you lose the spell.

And all you can throw at it currently is Dispel Magic?

Not a good situation...especially if you're wrong about it being illusory.

Anything that creates an Effect - Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, etc - works just fine. Anything that affects an Area - Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc - works just fine. It may not do you any good, but the casting will succeed. Anything that targets a creature... the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails, the spell is wasted.

You're not limited to Dispel Magic. If it's not an image that the caster is manipulating, your friends will be able to see that it evinces no reaction to the Scorching Ray or the Fireball. (Except for Mirror Image, where Scorching Ray will destroy it, and it will 'react normally' to the Fireball.)

If the targets are indistiguishable, how does the spell distinguish them? How can the spell simply fail, on account of not being targetted against a creature, if the thing it is targetted at is indistinguishable from a creature?

If you stick one with a dagger, it vanishes... that's not normal behaviour for a creature!

Once you actually make your selection, the effects of whatever you attempt are dependent on whether you were right or wrong. You can distinguish them by the result, but not before you start.

Remember, enemies can learn which is real and which are fake, until the caster moves and splits off to confound them once again.

-Hyp.