Do you let Magic Missiles destroy Mirror Images?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Actually, if you look at Jester's post above, you'll see that in 1E only weapon attacks were effective in destroying the Mirror Image images.

And actually, I said as much myself...

I was conflating the 1Ed and 2Ed rules there.

Illusions can still suck up spells - if you try to cast a spell that targets a creature on it, you lose the spell.

With radically different effects from the earlier editions.

Anything that creates an Effect - Scorching Ray, Acid Arrow, etc - works just fine. Anything that affects an Area - Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc - works just fine.

Not when the warriors are engaged in melee with their "foe."

 

[Hypersmurf]

With radically different effects from the earlier editions.

Hardly the only thing that's changed!

Not when the warriors are engaged in melee with their "foe."

What, you've never placed a Fireball so that the bad guys are in the area, and the good guys five feet away aren't?

And I use Scorching Ray and Acid Arrow on opponents in melee all the time. Even without Precise Shot, it's a touch attack...

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Another thing to consider is that Mirror Image is completely ineffectual if the intended audience cannot see the images...

But Magic Missile only depends upon the caster being able to percieve his target- it never mentions by sight. Blindsight, for instance, would be a perfectly legitimate way to target MM, and one unaffected by Mirror Image. If he can't see the images, he can't be fooled by them or target them.

Thus, the target acquisition isn't magic inherent to the MM, but dependent upon the perceptions of the caster. What the caster thinks is a creature is a valid target of the spell.

If the targeting of the spell was entirely controlled by the spell, it would be equally effective or ineffective regardless of the caster's perceptions. Instead, it depends upon the caster's perception of reality for acquisition of targets.

Regardless- I still don't agree that 3.X's adding of "figment" language invalidates targeting standards that are old enough to drink in the USA, especially with FAQ language that indicates that that is, at the very least, not intended to be the case at this time.

 

[Thanee]

Thus, the target acquisition isn't magic inherent to the MM, but dependent upon the perceptions of the caster. What the caster thinks is a creature is a valid target of the spell.

You can, apparantly, target the spell on whatever you want. But it only affects legal targets.

Basically, Mirror Image fools you into selecting an invalid target.

Of course, the additional information, that Magic Missile cannot damage inanimate objects, while it could simply be redundant, does make the whole targeting issues (or the intent thereof) kinda vague. It doesn't really fit together.

Bye
Thanee

 

[mirivor]

Magic Missile has to target creatures. If at any point in the spell's casting that is not the case the spell fails. The images are not creatures.

Besides, a first level already-broken spell should not be able to so easily undo a decent 2nd level spell.

 

[Thanee]

How is Magic Missile broken?

It's a perfect example for good spell design.

It's good early on, but surely not overpowering in any way. It remains useful throughout a whole lot of levels, while not competing (not really) with higher level spells.

I don't think 1st-level spells, that become useless after 5th (character) level, are well-designed.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Patlin]

I think Magic Missile is probably overpowered from levels 3 to 5 or so. Much higher than that, I've seen sorcerors put their party into serious danger when they stick with the "old standby" in a hard fight instead of using higher level spells. In its hayday, though, MM is a fantastic not to be missed gem for its level.

 

[KarinsDad]

No, you'd interact with them normally, regardless of attack mode.

The would RESULTS differ- the weapons would pop images, the spells would not.

In 1E or 2E, the Mirror Image illusions ONLY interfered with weapon attacks. The spell stated so.

Any spell would target the caster normally (there is an argument in 2E that Mirror Image would be enough concealment for Magic Missile to not target the caster, but not for most other spells).

This is what you stated:

Faced with illusory images of a mage created by Mirror Image, then, a mage who didn't disbelieve could target the images as if real..in fact, he had no choice BUT to do so.

It is flat out incorrect.

There was no saving throw for Mirror Image and Mirror Image ONLY affected the outcome of weapon attacks. A Mage could target the Mirror Imaged Mage all he wanted with 1E and 2E spells and they would always target successfully (with the possible exception of 2E Magic Missile which could have been ruled to not work at all due to the wording of MM).

 

[KarinsDad]

How is Magic Missile broken?

It's a perfect example for good spell design.

It is not broken, but it can be overpowered.

The problem lies in the fact that it always hits and always does damage at lower levels (where spell resistance does not exist).

Fighter seriously wounds BBEG, Sorcerer takes him out. Virtually every time.

Most spells which do not have a saving throw to minimize or negate damage can be overpowered. For example, Scorching Ray. But, Magic Missile is even worse than that from a game mechanics viewpoint because there isn't even a roll to hit with it.

It always hits. It always does some damage.

Sure, there are a few obscure items and the Shield spell to protect against it, but 99% of opponents do not have those options always available.

From a game mechanics point of view, it is a poorly designed spell.

 

[Thanee]

But, Magic Missile is even worse than that from a game mechanics viewpoint because there isn't even a roll to hit with it.

I don't get where that is bad. The spell is reliable. That's pretty much its main effect.

The BBEG won't die because of the puny MM. The BBEG died from the fighter's hits mostly.

Bye
Thanee