The Crimson Binome
Hero
You don't need quotes there. Strength is just strength. It has the same definition as it's always had. It has been measurable for thousands of years, and observable for long before that.
D&D 5E Do you miss attribute minimums/maximums?
- Thread starter Carlsen Chris
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Ganymede81
First Post
Then it would be really easy for you to name a single example of a real-life person's Strength score being observed and quantified.
Obryn
Hero
It's a combination of different measures, and as I said way upthread at this point, there's no reason for it to be limited purely to raw lift/press/grip strength. The other stats are pretty broad umbrellas, after all. (Charisma for example is somehow 'social proficiency,' 'command,' 'musical talent,' and 'innate magical wellspring'.)
Yeah, you can say "she's pretty strong!" and people will know what you mean - but you can also say "she's pretty smart!" or "she's tough!" and people will also know what you mean.
Ganymede81
First Post
You could say that the Strength score is an average of a thousand different factors and variables, but that still doesn't really encapsulate it.
At their heart, ability scores are an abstraction of the narratives you can make with your character; the strength score is a gamist way to determine who can and cannot craft a story about being strong. A sex-based strength restriction is another way of saying "You cannot tell a story about an exceptionally strong woman."
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
The way I see it is, even if women are on average weaker than men, the women who are born (strength based) fighters are clearly not an example of the average. They are the women that are examples of having greater than the average woman's strength and are equal to, or even greater than, many men. Which is one rrason why I wouldn't ever bother with a strength cap or penalty for female PCs.
The Crimson Binome
Hero
There are plenty of reasons to limit it to lift and strike capability, especially since those are easy to quantify. If we had easy metrics for motor skill and ability to withstand poison, we would use those. Quantifiability only improves the integrity of the model.
Game mechanics reflect the reality of the game world. Strength is a simulation of the strength of the character, abstracted to a level so that it's easy to understand and manipulate. There are no game mechanics for narrative, because the narrative is a meaningless concept which can only be used to describe the events that occur as a result of in-game causal processes after the fact.
Obryn
Hero
That's an excellent way of looking at it.
Obryn
Hero
The first and last parts of this sentence are in conflict. "It is meaningless, but also here's how it happens."
If a woman character is blocked off from high strength scores, they are blocked off from the narratives those strength scores would lead to.
Ganymede81
First Post
I'ma put "The reality of the game world" on a tee shirt.
17 out of 18, or 18 out of 20, still is pretty strong, thinking about it.
Anyway, realism is a tricky subject. People have different opinions and different criteria.
I would be nice to discuss this without calling people names. Let's keep at that.
Edit: I must remember you something: we are already talking about special humans.
A woman with 17 Str would defeat nearly anyone I deal with, man or woman. The limit would (supposedly) reflect the difference on the top tier of strength on both sexes. No "mere" mortal even enters the equation.
Anyway, realism is a tricky subject. People have different opinions and different criteria.
I would be nice to discuss this without calling people names. Let's keep at that.
Edit: I must remember you something: we are already talking about special humans.
A woman with 17 Str would defeat nearly anyone I deal with, man or woman. The limit would (supposedly) reflect the difference on the top tier of strength on both sexes. No "mere" mortal even enters the equation.
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