Do you need high stats to be an effective character?

[Darkness]

Turning the heroes into the "everyman" while Drizzt and Elminster run around with their scores all at 20 just makes me say "Sorry, next!"

Yeah. It's why I cut down those inflated stats that were grandfathered in from previous editions and instead give them point-buy stats of 36 points (PC level) or less, depending on character.

Theoretically, that is. Practically, I mostly just estimate what their point-buy stats will be but don't go into the details - it's not like my PCs frequently fight Drizzt or Edmonster, so their exact stats are rarely relevant in actual play IMC.

 

[Technik4]

I'll say this much: I do have reason to believe (based on personal experience) that people are right who claim that equivalent to a 32 point-buy or higher...

Standard point buy assumes 25 point buy. Comparing to a 32 point-buy you have 7 more points.

So a standard point-buy generic NPC Wizard

Str 9
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 15
Wis 10
Cha 10

I think we can agree if it isn't the best way to spread 25-points, its a spread that the MM would be used to facing. Raising this to a 32 point buy, the most logical thing for a wizard would be raising his Intelligence to a 18 (and dropping Str to an 8). I don't necessarily think that would make him act as if he were a level higher (especially at higher levels, where magic items are common enough).

...someone with several 18's and 16's in their scores actually seem to perform as if they were one level higher.

Makes sense to me. This is why many monsters have an ECL adjustment in addition to Racial HD. But I don't think this would be an issue until you compare 25 points to 36. In other words, a 25 point buy character could fight alongside a 32 point buy character without much trouble (although I do weep for a 25 point buy monk).

Technik

Edited: Didn't mean to have a wizard with higher con than Int (*ducks). 14 to 17 worked out to a 7 point difference, which is what I was trying to high-light. Naturally, I'm sure you could find bigger differences spending the points differently, but for many characters raising their most necessary score is the best way to go.

 

[Darkness]

Do stats limit the sort of roles you play? In a sense they do, but average stats aren't really more limiting than high stats since playing a shy, shrinking violet is no more credible with an 18 Cha than a successfully gregarious gadfly is with a 10 Cha.

Bluff and Disguise are Cha-based. If you have 18 Cha, you'll likely be able to appear as less imposing so others underestimate you or whatever. I believe it's worked well for, say, certain women in appropriate situations in strongly patriarchal societies.

 

[Luce]

Ability modifiers has much importance in 3.X than in 2ed. Before i used to play a fighter with wis 8 and have fun, now I would not dream of it since it makes her too vulnerable to mental attacks (confusion, charm so on). For front line PC, str (and dex) make a big differance. Also we use the rule that magic modifies to does not affect spellcasting ability-you need a "natural 19" to cast 9 level spell. This means that most spellcasters need at least 15 on first level to be able to cast their most powerful spells at 17 level ( and the DM ruled that increases done by wishes are magic modifiers).

 

[billd91]

Ability modifiers has much importance in 3.X than in 2ed. Before i used to play a fighter with wis 8 and have fun, now I would not dream of it since it makes her too vulnerable to mental attacks (confusion, charm so on). For front line PC, str (and dex) make a big differance. Also we use the rule that magic modifies to does not affect spellcasting ability-you need a "natural 19" to cast 9 level spell. This means that most spellcasters need at least 15 on first level to be able to cast their most powerful spells at 17 level ( and the DM ruled that increases done by wishes are magic modifiers).

But with the way stat bonuses are now apportioned, to get one you no longer need to have outrageously high stats. So, aside from home ruling that spell-casting needs a natural stat level, it would then follow that higher stats aren't as necessary in 3.x. Merely that a minimum of 10 is more important than it ever was in previous editions.

 

[Kanegrundar]

I always have at least a 16 starting out. That said, if I was handed a sheet with a so-called "worthless" character I would still play it, if it was interesting enough.

Kane

 

[Seeten]

Cliff is a moron, he is a textbook case of what I want to avoid.

The stats tell a tale. You can choose to play "as though you have cha 18" all you like, but I think thats poor roleplaying. I'll play my 10 cha, personally. So if I have a 10, you can expect sometimes interesting, sometimes incredibly boorish, tactless, tactful, and otherwise random acts, which run the gamut of good for the situation to terrible. Or, you can expect, as in the case of my 10 cha half-orc, that I will grunt when I begin raging, and bellow loudly as I swing my axe, before throwing a d20 as though I care. Which I dont. Since the character is completely forgettable.

Maybe it is just me, but I suspect it isnt, as I see many people locally, and elsewhere, with exactly the same viewpoint.

 

[Jdvn1]

Well, if your stats are too low, as a caster, you can't cast your higher level spells. And as a Fighter, you can't qualify for the better feats.

 

[Arnwyn]

Arn: Did you play this character to higher levels? Starting with a 14 in Intelligence, as a wizard, you would have an 18 Intelligence by level 16, assuming you put every ability increase in Intelligence. If you got to level 17 you would not be able to cast 9th level spells unless you had read a tome or were wearing a magical item which increases your Intelligence (Not to say this is necessarily difficult).

Your DCs would be consistently low, so monsters would have a high chance of resisting your spells. I don't think I would try, personally, but its neat to hear other peoples' stories.

No, only to about 11th. I can see the issues that you point out - however, see Henry's response, above; he's got it. Besides, we weren't playing a particularly combat-monkey game, and I preferred the role of utility wizard. The many situations we were presented with gave me tons of opportunities to shine.

In any case, experience has clearly showed me that I'm satisfied with characters who have a pair of 14s (or thereabouts, based on the poll questions). But, again, that's just me.

 

[Thanee]

The difference from Int 16 to Int 14 for a Wizard is basically a -1 in save DC, that's 5%, not the jump from powerful to unplayable.

And if attributes are generally lower, which they probably are, if you have a 14 in Int and are playing a Wizard, then most probably saves are also lower, so the result is pretty much the same.

Bye
Thanee