Do you threaten while flat footed?

[Aaron]

Hi to the EnWorld community.

Straight to the issue:

Does uncanny dodge make you immune to feinting in combat?
No. If uncanny dodge said “you never lose your Dexterity bonus to AC,” the answer would be yes, but that’s not what it says. Uncanny dodge allows you to retain your Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.
Although a feint creates a very similar situation (by disallowing the defender from using his Dexterity bonus to AC), it doesn’t specifically render the character flat-footed. (For example, the target of a successful feint still threatens the feinting character.) Thus, uncanny dodge wouldn’t negate the effect.

That bit implies that a flat footed character doesn't threaten.

I always believed that if you can't threaten the rules explicitely state it, and, in general, being not allowed to make AoO doesn't mean that you don't threaten.

What's your opinion?

 

[lukelightning]

From the SRD, emphasis mine.

Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, not yet reacting normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

 

[Artoomis]

Flat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

There you have it - no AoO's allowed. This implies no threatening.

 

[Aaron]

There you have it - no AoO's allowed. This implies no threatening.

This means that if I run out of AoO I don't threaten and thus I can't flank?

 

[Mistwell]

This is one of the two benefits of the combat reflexes feat. One benefit is of course the extra attacks of opportunity you can make based on your dex bonus. But the other benefit, often forgotten, is that you threaten while flat-footed.

 

[Beckett]

This means that if I run out of AoO I don't threaten and thus I can't flank?

No. If you are flatfooted you cannot make AoOs (excepting Combat Reflexes). If you have used all your AoOs for a round, you can still make AoOs (and still threaten). How many AoOs can you make? 0. It's the difference between someone who Cannot cast spells, and someone who can cast spells, but has 0 spells available.

 

[Aaron]

This is one of the two benefits of the combat reflexes feat. One benefit is of course the extra attacks of opportunity you can make based on your dex bonus. But the other benefit, often forgotten, is that you threaten while flat-footed.

There are spells and effects that can make you flat footed during your turn.

Being flat footed in itself doesn't prevent you from doing normal attacks.

So, if I fail the save against a readied Distract Assailant spell during my turn, do I still threaten?

 

[frankthedm]

There you have it - no AoO's allowed. This implies no threatening.

Implies how? A+B don't equal C in this rules system unless the rules say "A+B=C"

 

[FEADIN]

I think that you threaten while flat footed but you don't react rapidly enough to use your weapon unless you get combat reflexes.

Edit: From the SRD
Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action.

 

[Mistwell]

Implies how? A+B don't equal C in this rules system unless the rules say "A+B=C"

I disagree. A whole lot of rules are implied rather than expressed. Can you balance a piece of fruit on your head? There is no rule that says you can, but it's implied by the balance skill that you can. Is your opponent treated as flat-footed versus a hidden character? There is no rule that comes out and says it, but it's implied by various rules that you can (and the FAQ explains that). Can you make money, or at least pay 0, by crafting a set of Prayer Beads with certain beads missing? The rules seem to say you can, but the clear implication of the pricing in the text is that you cannot.

Sometimes, you have to just use the english language, logic, the context of rules, analogy, and other normal human common sense to figure out how things work with these rules. And I know that makes it more difficult to interpret rules, and makes it less objective. But, that's life! It's not a perfect set of rules, and not intended as such, and sometimes it's messy.