Dodging Fireballs and other Readied Action Sheneigans

[Starfox]

I came up with this recently - it's not something that actually happened in a game session.

In 3E and later you can ready an action to move out of an area as it is used. So if someone places a ''fireball'' centered on a corner of your sqare, you move 30 ft. and out of the 20 ft. radius of the fireball. Since fireballs always targets areas and not you, there is really no way to avoid this effect - but it costs your action.

As I see it this is perfectly legit, but I still find it rather fishy. Not sure if I'd allow it in game. Still, once or twice it can be a nice trick... It would quickly get old if used often.

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

It's a good question. One of the many problems I see is how could a character guess where the fireball is going to impact, and if the character can accurately guess, how long does he have to move out of the way before the fireball explodes?

AR

 

[Starfox]

Realistically, this is impossible. You cannot dodge bullets or impact-fuse artillery. We're not talking RL here.

By 3E rules, a reaction always happens before that which triggers it, but you can wait for the triggered action to happen before you announce your trigger. He can literally wait for the area to start to glow before moving, just as long as he specified his readied action right.

 

[Tovec]

Realistically, this is impossible. You cannot dodge bullets or impact-fuse artillery. We're not talking RL here.

Too true. IRL a fireball's effects should knock people back because of the compression from the fireball.

By 3E rules, a reaction always happens before that which triggers it, but you can wait for the triggered action to happen before you announce your trigger. He can literally wait for the area to start to glow before moving, just as long as he specified his readied action right.

By 3e rules? I don't have those books.

By 3.5 rules?

[h=5]Readying an Action[/h] You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.

So there is NO WAY to ready the action against "glowing light before fireball goes off" because that is part of it going off. Prepare for "when the caster casts fireball" then when he does you move 20 feet (or w/e distance) and then the caster adjusts to your new position AS it is cast. There is no way to do AS he casts. It is an interruption at which point the cater resumes. So, (1) how do you know where he is going to lob it, (2) how do you avoid it? Interruption can be before but not DURING the event, as the event itself is what the person wants to avoid and has no adequate way of doing so.

EDIT: To specify "when the area glows" is not nearly good enough. The area glows as an instantaneous effect. It happens immediately and in a sudden moment. You can't break it down by part of the effect before the next part of the effect. As written in SRD you can do it before he acts, at which point he can alter how he acts according. It is meant to allow you to react or respond differently after knowing what would have happened after your normal turn. It is NOT meant to break the spell economy or otherwise screw casters or anyone else out of their actions. If your prepared action goes off before the caster then the caster can adjust as he normally would have if you had kept your initiative.

 

[GX.Sigma]

I agree. Your window for reaction is (or should be) after you know he's casting fireball, but before he points at the target.

 

[RangerWickett]

Depends on how you flavor fireballs. If he lobs a bead of fire -- which seems to match the rules in that you have to succeed an attack to go through a narrow opening -- then you should be able to predict where it's going to land and run out of the way. This assumes that it flies at arrow speeds and not bullet or lightning speeds.

 

[delericho]

Yep, Tovec has it right - because your Readied action occurs before the action that triggered it, the only way to avoid a fireball in this way is if you're right at the extreme edge of the spell's range. Otherwise, the caster can simply retarget his spell.

 

[Starfox]

I guess it boils down to what "condition" and "continues his actions" means.

If the condition can be "I stand in the area of an area effect" it works. The fireball is already targeted, and my action (run like hell) happens before the condition.

If the condition has to be "someone put an area effect where I'd be in harm's way" the readied action is much less generally useful as I am triggering on the action, not the effect, but as long as "continues his actions" means he has to continue exactly as specified - place the area effect where he intended to - I'm ok as long as he didn't out-guess me.

To move is a move action, so I don't see that part as a problem at all. For example I have no problem with someone readying a partial charge, tough I realize this is somewhat shaky ground.

 

[pemerton]

Tovec has it right - because your Readied action occurs before the action that triggered it, the only way to avoid a fireball in this way is if you're right at the extreme edge of the spell's range. Otherwise, the caster can simply retarget his spell.

I don't agree with this.

For instance, charge is a single action - so by this account you can't ready an action to (say) stab a person with your longspear as s/he charges you from 20' away - because before the action the charger is outside reach, and once the action is completled the charger is adjacent and has already rolled his/her attack against you.

Also, this sentence seems confused:

If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.​

How can the triggered action be part of another character's activities? Presumably what is meant is "if the triggering action is part of another character's activities." Or, perhaps "if the triggering condition is part of another character's activities".

In any case, hurling a fireball bead would seem to be an event that is part of a spellcaster's activities, and a reasonable thing to ready movement in response to.

If someone wants to spend their standard action readying a move action in response to an enemy's fireball, I don't see what is wrong with that. I certainly don't see how it is going to "break the spell economy or otherwise screw casters or anyone else out of their actions" (per [MENTION=95493]Tovec[/MENTION] upthread). The caster still gets to cast fireball - they haven't lost their action. But if they wanted to be guaranteed to hit the dodging person, they should have changed a Single Target rather than AoE attack spell.

 

[Tovec]

I don't agree with this.

Why am I not surprised.

For instance, charge is a single action - so by this account you can't ready an action to (say) stab a person with your longspear as s/he charges you from 20' away - because before the action the charger is outside reach, and once the action is completled the charger is adjacent and has already rolled his/her attack against you.

Preparing against a charge is covered in a section below what I quoted, it didn't seem appropriate concerning spells and thus I ignored it at the time. Beyond that the definition given at that time is that you set against the charge, not that you are avoiding the effect of the charge and running away to make sure the charge didn't hit.

Also, this sentence seems confused:

If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.
​

How can the triggered action be part of another character's activities? Presumably what is meant is "if the triggering action is part of another character's activities." Or, perhaps "if the triggering condition is part of another character's activities".

Right? So in my above analogy.

Breakdown of events (according to Starfox):
Character A: I want to prepare to run way if targeted by a fireball.
Character B throws fireball. Character A runs away and evades because he is not there.

Breakdown of events (per SRD that I am trying to explain):
Character A: I want to prepare to run away if targeted by a fireball.
DM: Set your condition.
Character A: Um...? When I see the glowing emination of the fireball.
DM: Okay..
Character B: I throw a fireball.
Character A: I run --
DM: Roll reflex, save half.
Character A: But I ran away..
DM: Right, but your condition is to move when you see the glow. But as it is an instantaneous effect you only see the glow AS it happens. You can't move AS something is happening. Only BEFORE it happens. Ergo, if you try and run away BEFORE he throws the fireball (but presumably after he cast, and is then forced to finish) then he can re-adjust and hit you in your new square. You can't act AT THE SAME TIME as the effect, only BEFORE. So.. roll reflex.

In any case, hurling a fireball bead would seem to be an event that is part of a spellcaster's activities, and a reasonable thing to ready movement in response to.

See above.

If someone wants to spend their standard action readying a move action in response to an enemy's fireball, I don't see what is wrong with that. I certainly don't see how it is going to "break the spell economy or otherwise screw casters or anyone else out of their actions" (per @Tovec upthread). The caster still gets to cast fireball - they haven't lost their action. But if they wanted to be guaranteed to hit the dodging person, they should have changed a Single Target rather than AoE attack spell.

No, if they want to hit 6 people and this prepared action thing goes through then they can end up hitting 5 people with the 6th getting away, OR they can hit that one person who moved outside the effect. The spell economy should not be broken because readying an action is not intended to completely screw someone midway through an action, it is supposed to allow the first person to react differently than they otherwise would have. That is especially why the CONDITION set is so important when readying.

Random Example:
I prepare to run away if someone comes through the door. HOW? Condition could be as soon as I see them, I run away. In which case then they are already on the other side of the door and can do whatever they want at that point. I could then interrupt their turn and act. This would have been the same as me running BEFORE they entered the door but in that case I am unsure if they are going to. If my condition was different, as to allow me to move before the guy entered the door (so he didn't see me let's say) then that guy is still on the other side of the door when you move and is no longer "required" or forced or forfeitted into going to the other side of the door, just because you were there and he can then change his mind.


Either way; I see this as a person wanting to clearly abuse the spirit and actual meaning of the rule in order to break it. That is wrong (IMHO) via both RAI and RAW. Ultimately each game/player/w/e can do whatever they want but I have given my response to the question given as well as I can.