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Does 4th edition hinder roleplaying?
- Thread starter winndwalker
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Mr. Wilson
Explorer
IMHO, the answer is no.
What really matters is what your group wants to do with their game time. Some nights I can run nothing but combat and the players are happy, other nights I never break out the minis and we have some great character/plot development.
Just like any other game system I ever ran.
What really matters is what your group wants to do with their game time. Some nights I can run nothing but combat and the players are happy, other nights I never break out the minis and we have some great character/plot development.
Just like any other game system I ever ran.
shavedchimp
First Post
Here's my ten cents (my two cents is free). It seems that the general argument this blog is making is that being unable to multiclass limits the game because you're not able to properly simulate a character's life decision to move from one class to another. Also, you can't make the specific character flavor you want, and have to get fenced into playing just one role.
My argument is threefold.
The first point I'd make is the Elminster factor: you don't want a character who can do everything. Elminster Aumar works (as much as he does work, which is debatable, but not here) in a story as long as he's the main character. If he was in a party, he would wreck the game. To quote Shakespeare as well as Eminem in one post, we don't want someone who will say "let me play the lion too!" You fill a role, maybe overlap into a few other roles (PHB 2 classes do this well), but you don't want to be doing everything, because then the rest of your party doesn't have a chance to step forward and have their moments of screen time. And we didn't spend five hours painting our minis not to get our close-up.
The second point I'd make is that 4th gives you plenty of room to play your character as you would like. The multiclassing system is robust without being overbalanced, allowing for a level of customization that still keeps you on par with the rest of the team. There is also customization within the classes with different builds and paragon paths. I would even hazard to say that you can make an approximation of any character you want (unless your character is Elminster).
My third point is the argument that your character can't now find a new calling in life. He can: just roll up a new character, keeping your stats and skills mostly the same, and taking multiclass feats in your previous class. Tadaaa! It's a little rules-bendy, but if your heart is set on following your new life's ambition, I wouldn't see why your DM wouldn't let you do it. Because you never wanted to be a fighter. You wanted to be a lumberjack!
I think when it comes down to it, no roleplaying system is ever going to let you have everything as you want it. It's a framework for telling a story; so long as it can simulate well whether or not you killed the hydra, I'm content. If you want to make the story exactly your way, write a book.
I'm looking at you, Ed Greenwood.
My argument is threefold.
The first point I'd make is the Elminster factor: you don't want a character who can do everything. Elminster Aumar works (as much as he does work, which is debatable, but not here) in a story as long as he's the main character. If he was in a party, he would wreck the game. To quote Shakespeare as well as Eminem in one post, we don't want someone who will say "let me play the lion too!" You fill a role, maybe overlap into a few other roles (PHB 2 classes do this well), but you don't want to be doing everything, because then the rest of your party doesn't have a chance to step forward and have their moments of screen time. And we didn't spend five hours painting our minis not to get our close-up.
The second point I'd make is that 4th gives you plenty of room to play your character as you would like. The multiclassing system is robust without being overbalanced, allowing for a level of customization that still keeps you on par with the rest of the team. There is also customization within the classes with different builds and paragon paths. I would even hazard to say that you can make an approximation of any character you want (unless your character is Elminster).
My third point is the argument that your character can't now find a new calling in life. He can: just roll up a new character, keeping your stats and skills mostly the same, and taking multiclass feats in your previous class. Tadaaa! It's a little rules-bendy, but if your heart is set on following your new life's ambition, I wouldn't see why your DM wouldn't let you do it. Because you never wanted to be a fighter. You wanted to be a lumberjack!
I think when it comes down to it, no roleplaying system is ever going to let you have everything as you want it. It's a framework for telling a story; so long as it can simulate well whether or not you killed the hydra, I'm content. If you want to make the story exactly your way, write a book.
I'm looking at you, Ed Greenwood.
Toben the Many
First Post
Hrm. People aren't reading the article that was in the OP. I think after reading the article, I'd have to say that 4th Edition does hinder options in character creation, but that a good roleplayer can work around the limited options and portray the character that they want.
However, I'll certainly grant the article in the OP that some people really don't want to be restricted in their character options.
Indeed, from my understanding WotC wants character options to be limited so that you'll buy the PHB II and the PHB III. If you already have all of the options with just the regular PHB I, then their business plan has already sunk.
But then I'd also have to say that just about any game system limits your options. That's because any RPG system you have establishes parameters and attempts to establish some sort of level of "fair play".
Those parameters and fairness in the game limits story and character possibilities. If you play 3rd Edition and all of the characters start at level 1, then you'll never have a party that becomes like the Fellowship of the Ring, because everyone will be the same level. Unlike the Fellowship, where obviously the characters had varying levels of experience.
I think 4th Edition limited character options in exchange for ensured character equality. That might be a mighty turn-on for some, but a big turn-off for others.
EDIT: I will say that not being able to "find a new calling" in life for a character is pretty limiting. It doesn't happen much in TTRPGs, but it certainly does happen. I've seen it happen a number of times. Hm.
However, I'll certainly grant the article in the OP that some people really don't want to be restricted in their character options.
Indeed, from my understanding WotC wants character options to be limited so that you'll buy the PHB II and the PHB III. If you already have all of the options with just the regular PHB I, then their business plan has already sunk.
But then I'd also have to say that just about any game system limits your options. That's because any RPG system you have establishes parameters and attempts to establish some sort of level of "fair play".
Those parameters and fairness in the game limits story and character possibilities. If you play 3rd Edition and all of the characters start at level 1, then you'll never have a party that becomes like the Fellowship of the Ring, because everyone will be the same level. Unlike the Fellowship, where obviously the characters had varying levels of experience.
I think 4th Edition limited character options in exchange for ensured character equality. That might be a mighty turn-on for some, but a big turn-off for others.
EDIT: I will say that not being able to "find a new calling" in life for a character is pretty limiting. It doesn't happen much in TTRPGs, but it certainly does happen. I've seen it happen a number of times. Hm.
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Quoted for truth - or falsehood rather, but that's the point in this case.
I don't understand why you think we didn't read the article; did we misunderstand it in some fundamental way?
ProfessorPain
First Post
Guilty. I totally didn't read the article before commenting, and after reading it I see my comments were not related to the OPs question.
I can honestly say the 4E multiclassing was one of the features that turned me off to it; but I don't think it hinders role playing. It may make certain character concepts more difficult to realize (though 4E people have been kind enough to point out many combinations are still possible in the new system); but that isn't the same as hindering role play.
I agree with you. The goal was character equality. And to be fair character inequality is a problem in 3E if some players have greater system mastery than others.
FireLance
Legend
Well, I did read the blog post, and I'd say it was complaining more about options in character advancement rather than character creation.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
I would say a definite NO, especially when it comes to multi-classing. I absolutely DETESTED! 3.5 multi-classing because I found it extremely rigid once you multi-class. Your not a Fighter who has learnt a couple Wizard tricks, nope your a Fighter who has gone through all the training to be a First Level Wizard. Or You wish to take on only certain aspects of a second class, nope you got to level up in that class with all its baggage till you reach that point, etc, etc.
Now in 4e I can pick and choose which elements I want to bring across my character without being left with baggage I don't want. Heck, we actually have more options then before when it comes to multi-classing. We got normal multi-classing at various amounts of degrees, paragon multi-classing, paragon paths (many are showing multi-class traits like the Shadow Power-based Warlord one), Epic Destinies, other feat-strings.
As we progress on too we are seeing even more options, like the Bard's multiclassing, Half-Elves Versatile Mastery, newer and newer feat strings. New initial multi-class traits, etc.
Now in 4e I can pick and choose which elements I want to bring across my character without being left with baggage I don't want. Heck, we actually have more options then before when it comes to multi-classing. We got normal multi-classing at various amounts of degrees, paragon multi-classing, paragon paths (many are showing multi-class traits like the Shadow Power-based Warlord one), Epic Destinies, other feat-strings.
As we progress on too we are seeing even more options, like the Bard's multiclassing, Half-Elves Versatile Mastery, newer and newer feat strings. New initial multi-class traits, etc.
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