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does a nice, shy, meek guy have a chance in hell?

Aaron L said:
i dont know what to do anymore. i dont have any hope left of ever meeting anyone. im 29 and have never had a girl even remotely attracted to me, despite going out and trying to meet people as much as i can. ive been told im good looking. ive been told im fun to be around. ive been told im too nice. i have no self confidence, but how do you have self confidence when you know that theres something so fundamentally repulsive about you to cause you to be 29 years old and never so much as kissed a woman? ive tried asking people what i need to change abuot myself, and i never get a straight answer. is it just that im nice, shy, meek, and polite, and these arent things that women want in a man? my very personailty is just so unmanly that the very idea of a romantic relationship with me is a joke?

i dont know what to do anymore. ive lost all hope and dont have much to live for if this is how my life is going to be. all ive ever wanted since i was a teenager was someone to love me, and ive never had anything even remotely resembling it. i used to be able to hide behind roleplaying and smother my pain in games, but i dont even have that anymore, everyone i gamed with having decided im not worth the effort to even speak to anymore. i post it here becuse i have no friends left, and no one i can talk too. i dont expect any answers, because i know there arent any. but the pain is just too much and i need to yell, or scream, or even just complain to someone. so i drink and hope to fall asleep and sometimes wish i wouldnt wake up in the morning.

oh man. i was heading down this path myself, until about my mid-20s. i'm glad i didn't let it get that far, though. i had some very limited success with girls around the age of 25, mostly stumbling around where i didn't know where i was going.

all i can tell you is that i didn't meet my wife until i realized that i did not need a woman to be happy with myself. :) giving up on worrying about that took a ton of pressure off, and when we met *she* was the nervous one, not me.
 

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Rel said:
I agree that "be confident" is not very helpful advice. I'll give you something concrete and you can decide whether it is stupid or not:

A risk where you have nothing to lose is not a risk.

That's what approaching a woman is about. You have nothing and stand to gain everything. There is no deal so sweet in all the universe as that. Confidence is not the notion that you'll win every encounter with womankind. Confidence is knowing that you'll SURVIVE FAILURE and try again.

"But," you say, "this prospect terrifies me." Terrifies you more than what?! More than the self-loathing and fear of being alone your whole life and knowing that you've done nothing to deserve otherwise? I am familiar with self-loathing and there is NOTHING worse that I can imagine. Do you think that other guys aren't afraid when they put themselves out there and strike up a conversation with a woman? But they do it anyway because that's how you get past the fear and eventually how you find somebody to share this crazy life with.

If you see an attractive woman, and if she's not wearing a shirt that says, "Womyn Rule, Men Suk!" while holding an operational chain saw, then get your ass over there and talk to her. And then when she turns you down and sends you away, go home and feel the depression of being shot down instead of the far worse feeling that you never even tried. Then get up the next morning and go do it again. And again. Until you get a date. And when that relationship fails in its infancy go do it again.

Fail. Fail often and gloriously until you understand that failure means nothing.

You are NOT special and if you think that this cruel universe is just going to hand you the perfect relationship with no effort or hardship on your part then you're playing a game with long odds. If you're going to play those odds then buy a lotto ticket too. And when you win then have a t-shirt with your net worth on it printed for every day of the week. Because that's the only other way that you're going to land chicks if you won't make the effort.

As usual, Rel hits the nail right on the head.

In your attempts to find a mate, you will be rejected by a fair share of women. Some will already have boyfriends or husbands, while others simply won't be interested. Yes, rejection sucks, but the brief period of disappointment you'll feel from being turned down is insignificant compared to the shame you'll feel if you never even try. If a girl you ask out says no or says that she considers you a "good friend", forget about her and look for someone else. Don't continue trying to win her over after she's turned you down because that almost never works, and the odds are that you'll just end up looking like a loser at best or a creepy stalker at worst.

And even when you do find women to go out with you, it's almost certain that you'll have a few relationships that simply won't work out. New relationships are usually based on physical attraction more than anything else, and often when one person in the relationship spends a little time with the other and learns more about their personality, they discover that they really aren't as interested in the other person as they thought. Still, if you hang in there and don't give up, your efforts will eventually pay off.
 

Some platitutudes that worked for me:

Faint heart never won fair maiden.
Fake it until you make it.

The first is what I told (tell) myself everytime I am faced with a risk that I'm not sure if I want to take. It's gotten me a lovely wife, a great job and success I could have never hoped for. The second is a sold confidence building strategy: fake it. Think of a what a confident, successful person would do when faced with your situation and do that. Pretty soon the faking goes away and you realise confidence is only a careful knowledge of what you can do and a committment to go beyond that.

And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh. Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love. It's the only thing worth risking everything for.

Einan
 

I'd say yes, but with a qualifier. From my experiences, men are still generally expected to make the first move. Chances are, that unless you are willing to take a few risks, the women you will end up dating will be those that are more aggressive. It's up to you to decide whether or not that works for you.
 

Einan said:
And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh. Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love. It's the only thing worth risking everything for.

I agree..... if you can make a woman laugh a lot and laugh hard, you're in.
 

Einan said:
And chicks dig guys that can make them laugh. Never be afraid to make a fool of yourself for love. It's the only thing worth risking everything for.

Good advice, just try to be careful that the bulk of your jokes aren't self-depreciating. If your attempts at humor always come across as subtle self-pity, it can actually turn off women instead of endearing you to them.
 

Aaron, I’m going to repeat what many others have already stated –

You will never find a long-term loving relationship with a woman until you learn to love yourself (as a man without a woman).

I don’t know enough about you to suggest how to do that, but here’s some things you might want to try:

- Further your education
- Improve your career (work for a promotion or get a more fulfilling job)
- Go to church
- Get in better shape
- Update your look (hair, cloths, etc)
- Join a social group that has nothing to do with gaming (try Toastmasters to improve your communication skills)
 

Dark Jezter said:
Good advice, just try to be careful that the bulk of your jokes aren't self-depreciating. If your attempts at humor always come across as subtle self-pity, it can actually turn off women instead of endearing you to them.

I tried always making my jokes about boobs.

That helped to offend-away all the chicks that were too uptight for me to want to date anyway.
 


Rel said:
A risk where you have nothing to lose is not a risk.
Funny. I just helped my mother write a speech for a college graduation she was asked to address based around this exact theme. There's a great John Milton quote on this to the effect of 'there is no such thing as an untested virtue.'
That's what approaching a woman is about. You have nothing and stand to gain everything. There is no deal so sweet in all the universe as that. Confidence is not the notion that you'll win every encounter with womankind. Confidence is knowing that you'll SURVIVE FAILURE and try again.
Going by that definition, I am a very confident man. I set a minimum annual rejection quota for myself which I have met or exceeded every year for the past 5 years. I make sure that I risk rejection on a regular basis, based, precisely, on this understanding. For instance, I have been rejected by four women since September 15th just this year -- that's one every 2 weeks.
Do you think that other guys aren't afraid when they put themselves out there and strike up a conversation with a woman?
I think all people are afraid in these situations; I'm not positing a qualitative difference between sexually successful and sexually unsuccessful groups of men; I'm positing a quantitative one. Women will naturally gravitate towards the men who display the least anxiety; I happen to, through non-verbal, coded verbal and tone-based signals, all outside my direct real-time conscious control, to display a significantly above average level of anxiety.

Some people are just like that; their brains are wired to make them a little more anxious. In present day society, where social confidence is especially prized over wealth, strength and other, more traditionally important attractants, people who have less inherent talent in managing social anxiety find themselves at the bottom of the heap when it comes to dating. I'm not especially resentful of this; my brain may screw me when it comes to over-producing certain neurotransmitters but, on the other hand, I benefit intellectually, socially and professionally in other ways from my neurological makeup.
But they do it anyway because that's how you get past the fear and eventually how you find somebody to share this crazy life with.
I have practiced this theory very successfully in other areas of my life. But I think there is a key difference when it comes to dating, however. There are lots of fears where you can perform just fine, in spite of anxiety, because your task is something other than "don't be anxious." For instance, someone can succeed at giving a speech, even though they are nervous because people can still appreciate a good speech given by a nervous person. Similarly, non-romantic social interactions can still be successful even though one or both parties appears nervous; it is possible for women to like men non-romantically, even though they are nervous; but in the romantic arena, this simply is not the case.

For this reason, I would suggest there are two classes of activity for looking at confidence building through flooding/exposure: (a) those activities where one can succeed despite being exceptionally anxious and (b) those activities in which it is impossible to succeed if one is exceptionally anxious. Most activities such as non-romantic social interaction, public speaking, etc. fall into category (a); however, a small minority of activities like dating and swimming fall into category (b).
Fail. Fail often and gloriously until you understand that failure means nothing.
Are you secretly corresponding with my mom or reading my outgoing e-mails? You're directly quoting the speech I wrote. :)
You are NOT special and if you think that this cruel universe is just going to hand you the perfect relationship with no effort or hardship on your part then you're playing a game with long odds.
These are wise words. I agree with them. But I think that people are allowed to be exceptionally incompetent at certain things, just as we are allowed to be recognized as exceptionally competent at others. I'm not giving up, nor am I advising Aaron to do so. I will continue meeting or exceeding my rejection quota every year, mainly because, as you point out, not trying often leads to escalating feelings of self-loathing and despair. That pent-up energy has to go somewhere.

But I think it is a real mistake to tell Aaron that if he keeps trying he will eventually succeed because (a) he will continue expecting that happiness is something that will come to him from an external source rather than something that will come from within himself and (b) not everybody who tries does make it in the end; I know it's a big part of American national mythology to peddle that idea but it's just not true; what Aaron wants is worth working for but not something that is guaranteed to people as some kind of entitled payoff for hard work.
If you're going to play those odds then buy a lotto ticket too. And when you win then have a t-shirt with your net worth on it printed for every day of the week. Because that's the only other way that you're going to land chicks if you won't make the effort.
Rel, Rel buddy -- it's me! It's me! Ignore the strawman, talk to me.
 

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