does anyone else think half-orcs get gypped?

[Seeten]

Karinsdad is right about low level play with a dwarf and an orc in a single class.

The half-orc is fine in a class thats dumping int, dumping cha, rps as a big dumb idiot, has no force of personality, and swings a sword at stuff, and has utterly 0 other capabilities.

To some, because he gets an extra couple of points of dmg out of his strength, it means you need to gimp him in all other roles. This makes no sense to me. A barbarian doesnt care about charisma, beyond intimidate, so what does it matter? It simply means you're a gimped Paladin, a lousy Cleric, etc. This is equivalent to rping restrictions for in game power.

Giving bonus skills and bonus feats that dont up combat potential do not change the barbarian or fighter in combat, just like adding +2 spot/listen/search dont add much to an Elven Wizard.

I still dont buy the argument Karinsdad presents where a couple of points of extra damage means you need unbalanced stats. That means the extra int of sub races of elves equates to extra fireballs, which is many dice more damage than the 2-4 points of our mythical half-orc, and oddly, without the additional penalty the half-orc gets.

 

[Seeten]

As an offensive melee combatant, the Dwarf just does not match up to the two handed weapon Half-Orc.

As a defensive melee combatant (both hit points and saves versus spells), the Dwarf is better.

And as a rogue, the Dwarf is better. And as a Wizard, the Dwarf is better. And as a Psion, the dwarf is better. And as a Dwarven Defender, better. Ranger? Dwarf. Need Skill points, Dwarf is better. Need to find cunning stonework? Dwarf. Poison? Dwarf. Saves? Dwarf.

The pros of the half-orc are in one terribly limited situation, the cons are in vast wide gulfs.

The issue isnt that its marginally better for Barbarian, its that its completely suboptimal in every single other respect. A dwarf is actually GOOD in multiple classes. A Half Orc is most certainly not. I submit that there is absolutely no good reason for this. I have not seen any argument for why a half-orc ought to be atrocious at all non barbarian roles beyond "as a barbarian they do 2-4 extra dmg".

Thats just not acceptable.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad is right about low level play with a dwarf and an orc in a single class.

The half-orc is fine in a class thats dumping int, dumping cha, rps as a big dumb idiot, has no force of personality, and swings a sword at stuff, and has utterly 0 other capabilities.

Total nonsense.

Being -1 to Cha skills and -1 skill point per level does not equate to a big dumb idiot.

And, I gave an 11th level Fighter example. 11th level is not low level play.

To some, because he gets an extra couple of points of dmg out of his strength, it means you need to gimp him in all other roles. This makes no sense to me. A barbarian doesnt care about charisma, beyond intimidate, so what does it matter? It simply means you're a gimped Paladin, a lousy Cleric, etc. This is equivalent to rping restrictions for in game power.

Wisdom is not a stat that gets hit by Half-Orcs.

Half-Orcs make great Clerics, especially Clerics of War Deities.

For one Turn Undead and a few skill points and a mere -1 at Cha based skills, they get to whomp on enemies.

Half-Orcs also make good Rogues, good Druids, good Rangers, etc. They make slightly sub-par Bards, Paladins, Wizards, or Sorcerers. Every other core class, they do fine in. They do fine in most classes that actually get into melee combat (and ranged combat with Strength bows).

Darkvision alone makes them great as adventurers.


When one actually looks at the math, only power gamers think they are really an inferior core race.

"Oh no, my Half-Orc has one less skill rank per level over your Elf."

When the Half-Orc is fighting the Elf in a totally dark room, guess who wins.

 

[billd91]

When the Half-Orc is fighting the Elf in a totally dark room, guess who wins.

Yes, but that situation is kind of irrelevant because it's crafted to be extremely in the half-orc's favor. Put the same half-orc up against an elven rogue in a dimly lit area with lots of brush for cover and this time the half-orc's going to lose. The elf's got the skill points and Dex to hide and sneak attack the half-orc, who can't afford to invest in Spot, all day.

For what it's worth, I think Strength is a marginally better stat than most because it's useful in pretty much any melee even once the spell-casters are out of any of their spells with DCs increased by good mental stats. But it's really only a marginal benefit overall that will ultimately become less important as the characters level up and gain other means of getting that extra +1 to hit and damage (+ a bit more if power attacking with a 2-handed weapon).
By contrast, the effect of high intelligence grows with every level. That's nothing to sneeze at, particularly with a skill-based character.

Ultimately, I think I'd rather not see any character receive much of a charisma penalty, including the half-orc. Why should a half-orc or dwarf have less personality? Penalties to interaction skills would be better. Then we could wipe out the half-orc's second stat penalty in favor of penalties to diplomacy, bluff, and information gathering.

 

[Darklone]

Halforcs are great with any class where multiclassing with barbarian helps, e.g. rogue, cleric, fighter and even bard. I've even seen strong halforc paladins. Ok, their saves and turning wasn't so nice, but they hit harder.

And please... Karinsdad and my arguments didn't mean to say the halforc is stronger than others, just that he's not so horribly underpowered as many seem to assume.

Btw: If there's one race with a charisma penalty, it should be the halforc. But that's a matter of the setting and should be handled in the setting rules. You're right that it doesn't necessarily belong into the core rules. Just as the iconic gods...

 

[KarinsDad]

And as a rogue, the Dwarf is better. And as a Wizard, the Dwarf is better. And as a Psion, the dwarf is better. And as a Dwarven Defender, better. Ranger? Dwarf. Need Skill points, Dwarf is better. Need to find cunning stonework? Dwarf. Poison? Dwarf. Saves? Dwarf.

The pros of the half-orc are in one terribly limited situation, the cons are in vast wide gulfs.

This is an overreaction.

A Half-Orc Rogue can be better than a Dwarf Rogue because his Sneak Attack damage can be greater.

8 skill ranks per level versus 9 skill ranks per level does not break a character.

The idea with an offensive race is to take out the enemy before one has to make too many saving throws.

 

[Legildur]

The pros of the half-orc are in one terribly limited situation, the cons are in vast wide gulfs.

Terribly limited situation? You must be playing a different type of game than what I do. Across multiple daily encounters with numerous attack rolls (and opposed Strength checks of various types), the additional Strength bonus can really add up both in successful attacks and damage dealt.

This doesn't include other Strength related activities that may be required out of combat (including encumbrance).

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but that situation is kind of irrelevant because it's crafted to be extremely in the half-orc's favor. Put the same half-orc up against an elven rogue in a dimly lit area with lots of brush for cover and this time the half-orc's going to lose. The elf's got the skill points and Dex to hide and sneak attack the half-orc, who can't afford to invest in Spot, all day.

Going to lose???

Is the Half-Orc a Rogue as well? If so, his Spot rolls might be just fine.

And if the Half-Orc is a combatant type like a Fighter or Barbarian, even though the Elf Rogue does a lot of damage with his initial attack, after that, he's toast (low hit points against a high Strength character). He can rarely "re-hide" (assuming he does not have Hide in Plain Sight or other unusual abilities).

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

In such a scenario, the Elf Rogue will usually lose instead.

 

[AbeTheGnome]

A Half-Orc Rogue can be better than a Dwarf Rogue because his Sneak Attack damage can be greater.

8 skill ranks per level versus 9 skill ranks per level does not break a character.

more damage from a high STR score does not a good rogue make. the ability to hide and move silently does, and those things come from skill points. while one skill point per level may not break a character, it certainly doesn't make things any easier to make a viable PC in a skill-intensive class.

 

[Endur]

In D&D melee combat, strength is by far and away the most important stat. It affects to hit chance and damage. It also affects grapples, bull rushes, disarm, sunder, overruns, and other special options.

More strength is better. Half-orcs get the most strengh of the races in the PHB. They are going to be the best in melee combat (on offense at least).

Dwarves are better on defense.

In a party game, where one player is tanking for the rest of the party, dwarves make better tanks because of their higher con and saving throws, but they don't put out as much damage as the half-orcs.

In a hack and slash game, where you want to see how how many enemies your individual character slays, you want to be a half-orc.

Obviously, once you get out of melee combat, other races and character classes get a change to shine (Bards, Sorcerors, etc.).