Does blade barrier damage objects?

[Infiniti2000]

I was curious about your take on whether the spell blade barrier damages objects. Consider three cases:

1. Erect the barrier in front of a moving ship/wagon.
2. Carry a box through it (less than your max load of course).
3. Fire an arrow through it.

My first assumption was that it does damage objects because it doesn't say that it doesn't. But then, the cover bonus it provided would be a wasted statement except against things that can't be destroyed.

Any other thoughts?

Spell Text: [sblock]Blade Barrier
Evocation [Force]
Level: Clr 6, Good 6, War 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: Wall of whirling blades up to 20 ft. long/ level, or a ringed wall of whirling blades with a radius of up to 5 ft. per two levels; either form 20 ft. high
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex half or Reflex negates; see text
Spell Resistance: Yes

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.[/sblock]

 

[Corsair]

The spell only references the fact that it damages things once.

"Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage."

Sounds pretty clear to me. Your arrows and ships are safe.

 

[reanjr]

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.

"Any creature passing through the wall..." - I could see this applying to objects passing through the wall as well (thrown through, for example).

"...so that it appears where creatures are..." - The spirit of this is to allow a single blade barrier attack on the target before they get a chance to move out of the way. Unattended objects cannot move out of the way, so I would say the blade barrier cannot be called to be in the area of objects but can affect objects moving in later.

A literal reading will tell you the blade barrier only affects creatures and not objects. A spirited reading, in my opinion, would still indicate that you can't set it up to take out a castle wall, but it could be erected in front of a wagon to cut it off (hehe, cut if off, get it?). A logical reading (based on physics and science and stuff) would allow you to do any of these things. Applying logic to spells usually leads one down the road to damnation, though.

My personal thought is to allow it to appear in front of a wagon, but not on top of the wagon. Whether the spell fizzles, automatically alters target, or simply doesn't work in the offending area, I'd use the latter.

 

[MarkB]

When I browsed through Stormwrack, one nice section it had detailed the likely effects of almost every vaguely applicable PHB spell when cast against a ship. Unfortunately, I don't own the book and can't remember if blade barrier was listed, but someone who has the book might be able to look it up and post the answer.

 

[Scharlata]

[...]might be able to look it up and post the answer.

Alas, there is no answer, but silence...

Page 29:
...Animate Objects...
...Animate Rope...
...Cloudkill...
...Control Water...

Kind regards

 

[Bad Paper]

In my experience, yes.

Specifically, I had a BBEG throw up a blade barrier and then his buddy put up a wall of iron at a skewed angle in an effort to hedge in the party. The barrier made a horrific klangity klang klang as it shredded the part of the wall that passed through it. Then I threw up a wall of stone, which made lots of pulverizing noises. OK, so I'm heavy on the sound-flavor.

--/---\--

where - is blade barrier, \ is wall of iron, and / is wall of stone.

 

[KarinsDad]

This is a difficult question and can be adjudicated either way.

To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).

An immobile, vertical curtain of whirling blades shaped of pure force springs into existence. Any creature passing through the wall takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 15d6), with a Reflex save for half damage.

If you evoke the barrier so that it appears where creatures are, each creature takes damage as if passing through the wall. Each such creature can avoid the wall (ending up on the side of its choice) and thus take no damage by making a successful Reflex save.

A blade barrier provides cover (+4 bonus to AC, +2 bonus on Reflex saves) against attacks made through it.

However, I would rule the following:

1) If an attacking object (like an arror) misses its target due to the cover bonus (e.g. a PC with an AC of 25 ups it to 29 and if the total was 25 to 28, it hit cover), it is because it got hit (or blocked) by a blade of force. If this happens, the object could get destroyed by the spell since force attacks should affect objects. If the attacking object did not hit the cover bonus, then it was unaffected by the spell.

2) If a stationary object is in the path of the spell, then it automatically gets hit and takes appropriate damage.


Yes, I realize the spell indicates creatures, but it also states that they are blades of force. By default, force effects affect objects, hence, unless a given force effect explicitly states that it does not affect objects, it does.

 

[Infiniti2000]

...since force attacks should affect objects.

I'm not convinced about that. The glossary on force damage references magic missile, which stipulates that it does not damage inanimate objects. Now, is that merely a caveat for magic missile or is that the general rule for force damage since it was referenced in the glossary? Force damage is not mention at all in the area under energy damage to objects, or anywhere else.

So, nothing says it affects objects and one, loosely-applied rule says it doesn't.

For now, we're leaning towards the blade barrier not affecting the ship at all and just killing any of the crew remaining on deck whilst the ship passes through. That will be the crew on the first 30ft (the ship was moving 30ft/round as I cast), plus any others who could not get out of the way (such as the captain who was confused and busy killing his lieutenant ).

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not convinced about that. The glossary on force damage references magic missile, which stipulates that it does not damage inanimate objects. Now, is that merely a caveat for magic missile or is that the general rule for force damage since it was referenced in the glossary? Force damage is not mention at all in the area under energy damage to objects, or anywhere else.

Unlike many other Force Effects, Magic Missile states Target: Creatures. It would affect objects except that it explicitly excludes objects:

A missile of magical energy darts forth from your fingertip and strikes its target, dealing 1d4+1 points of force damage.

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment. Specific parts of a creature can’t be singled out. Inanimate objects are not damaged by the spell.

I've brought this point up before. If Force Effects do not affect objects, then (the SRD version of) Wall of Force does not stop arrows.

A wall of force spell creates an invisible wall of force. The wall cannot move, it is immune to damage of all kinds, and it is unaffected by most spells, including dispel magic. However, disintegrate immediately destroys it, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a mage’s disjunction spell. Breath weapons and spells cannot pass through the wall in either direction, although dimension door, teleport, and similar effects can bypass the barrier. It blocks ethereal creatures as well as material ones (though ethereal creatures can usually get around the wall by floating under or over it through material floors and ceilings). Gaze attacks can operate through a wall of force.

Nowhere in its description does Wall of Force state that it blocks objects such as arrows, nor does it state that it provides total cover. It also does not state that it is a solid wall. Just because the wall is immune to arrow damage does not indicate that it stops arrows (or any other inanimate objects).

To me, since Blade Barrier explicitly states that it provides a cover bonus to attacks, it has to minimally block attacks. This includes spell attacks that cover bonus affects (like Rays) and missile attacks (like Arrows). If it blocks a missile, it has to affect objects. QED.

So, I consider Magic Missile to be the exception and other Force Effects to be the rule.


If you emphasize the "creature" aspect of Blade Barrier, do you not also have to do the same for Wall of Force?

 

[Infiniti2000]

If it blocks a missile, it has to affect objects. QED.

That's a good point.

It doesn't make me feel any better about it though. Sure, as the player with blade barrier, I can sink ships left and right, but an enemy cleric will come along soon and do the same to us. That part will suck. Sans counterspelling, it's nearly a guaranteed sinkage.

It's possible then that the blade barrier will do some damage. It's also possible it could just stop the ship. Consider an arrow. If the arrow makes it through, clearly no damage was done (no arrow could withstand 15d6). Any other ideas (from anyone) on how else to adjudicate that?