Does evil mean Evil? Is a paladin free to act against evil?

[FireLance]

In my campaign, a paladin who smites someone for simply being evil isn't being just or merciful. An evil aura is a warning to be careful, not a license to smite.

A paladin who comes across a creature who radiates evil in the wilderness should certainly attempt to find out why it is there and what it has done to earn its evil aura. Once he has established whatever facts he can, he may challenge the creature, attempt to redeem it, or rush to warn others and seek reinforcements, as appropriate.

Perhaps I hold paladins to too high a standard in my campaign. My players largely belong to the "If it's evil, kill it!" school of adventuring, and not a single one of them has dared to play a paladin in my game .

 

[Olive]

Well, it depends on the laws of your country, doesn't it? I could see Paladins being Judge Dredd types. So maybe walking up to an evil dude in the middle of the street, grabbing him by the neck, and shouting "This is what happens ti evil in Middleton" right before you remove his head, might be completely, perfectly legal in Middleton.

But it still wouldn't be good. Judge Dread was certainly not good, as he lacked any respect for life. He never tried to redeem the evil ones either.

On that note let me say that this is the first of the 'who can my paladin get away with smiting' threads I've seen on this board when we've got to page three before someone has said "paladins are there to kill evil, not hold it's hand". Have we mellowed as a community or something?

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

I don't know, but like I mentioned earlier, if paladins went around smiting everything with an evil aura they'd probobly lose a fair amount of people in cities, around 10-60% depending on the nation and tendency of the city. For starters, I think if a paladin finds some random evil NPC or intelligent monster that ISN'T attacking them right away, and the NPC/monster's reason for being there unknown, a paladin should be stripped of their special abilities as soon as they take a swing or offensive action against the enemy. Because, like people said, there are spells to misdirect divinations and detect evil is not a 100% fullproof thing.

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Whisper72]

Well.... there is a big diff between someone who is evil at heart and someone who has committed truly evil acts. Maybe this can be portrayed game-wise as a 'degree' of evilness, and then there is this threshold after which ppl who show a certain aura must have committed evil acts, and then it might be okay.

On the other hand, if you think 'lawful' as part of LG in the sense as we know it now, then the adage of 'innocent until proven guilty' applies. Then the question becomes one of 'is a positive 'detect evil' enough / admissible evidence'? Maybe there needs to be a conclave of three beings who unanimously detect evil and interpret these readings in the same way??

All this then comes down to the Law of the Land. In some lands it may be that the LG paladin will end up in jail and executed for killing a 'random evil person', even though the land where this happens is an inherently good country, but the Paladin did not stick to the law... he shoulda brought the guy in to the local authorities in stead of playing judge, jury and executioner in one...

 

[Fenes]

IMC, I run evil as EVIL. Not just being cruel, not just being selfish, but actively going out of your way to harm innocents, torture them, make deals with devils and demons and other abhorrent practises.
Good is GOOD - sacrificing yourself for the greater good of others all day, working hard to help others without a thought of personal gain etc.

Anything and anybody else is neutral, even the mercenary or hired killer. That means that evil people are mostly clerics and cultists working on nefarious plans, good people are usually clerics of good gods, paladins etc.

As to a paladin detecting evil and killing a man on the road... imc, paladins are, well, Paragons of Virtue - the epitome of good and right, the protector of the weak and innocent, defender of the land, the people who gladly give their lives for others. The people know they are the direct servants of the gods, not some funny knights in full plate mumbling about hooky religions. They know paladins do not lie, stand up for what is right, and live by harder standards than anyone.
So, if a paladin comes into town, people will not harass him as a lawful stupid goody doer, at least not the common people, who know they can count on him to help them in their need. The jealous noble may be peeved, partly due jealousy, partly through shame for not living up to the ideals himself, and the more selfish people will be a bit wary. But no mob of peasants will be dissing paladins, and no city watch will lord it over them.

Combine the two, and no judge will persecute a paladin for enacting god's will - unless that god is outlawed in a country - by killing EVIL people.

Needless to say, amulets and spells that hide alignment are common among my villains, but the paladin in my campaign does not use detect evil on everyone she sees anyway.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

At the risk of an 'off topic' sidetrack.

I've read this thread and it seems some people use the Lawful side of the Paladins nature to keep a hold on the Paladin Code *.

If it's allowed in those games how is the Holy Liberator type expected to behave? Is their chaotic nature more of a license to slaughter?


* - The Paladin Code
10 Detect Evil
20 Smite
30 Goto 10

 

[S'mon]

If I were playing the Paladin I would want to find out what detecting evil meant in that GM's campaign. Eg if 33% (or 40%+ according to NPC tables!) of people Det as Evil, apparently evil is a near-universal condition, so I'd be wary but take no immdediate action based on the reading.

IMC you only detect as Evil if you Radiate evil (as per 1e) - Det Evil IMC isn't a radar, it's a passive detector. Which means Outsiders, Demons, Devils, serial killers, high priests of evil gods, that kind of thing. A Paladin should strive against those Evil forces whenever possible.

 

[Al]

The Gods forbid that Good should ever be merciful, compassionate or understanding!

Even in our flawed contemporary world which is certainly not Good, we only reserve capital punishment for the most heinous of crimes, and some countries have banned in- where it is implemented, it is after a full trial process and multiple appeals.

The paladin does not have a 'right to smite' evil people. If he did simply waltz up to someone and smite them, I'd removed his powers altogether and bump him to LN. Killing an evil person is still murder. That it should be done self-righteously does not in any way mitigate the act. Evil characters are not EVIL and craven baby-eating demon-worshippers. The experiences of the twentieth century ought to have taught us lessons about the 'mundanity of evil'.

Evil is not caring about the lives and aspirations of others. Neutrals at least have some empathy, some guilt, some remorse when their goals conflict, and do not set out to harm others gratuitously. Evils just don't care. The child who lies about his brother to get himself out of trouble is committing an evil act. The kid who kicks the dog for his own pleasure is committing an evil act. The husband beating his wife is committing an evil act. Evil can just as easily be an amalgam of minor evil acts as dedication to the big E.

Evil is just as much about reaction as action. The dutiful executioner who is determined to help fight crime might be LG, the one who does it out of duty or a need to feed his family LN, and the guy who likes lopping off heads LE. The same action might have three different alignments behind it. It's because alignment is as much in the heart and in the act that 'right to smite' is invalid. Paladins punish those who commit major evil acts, not the minor evil dog-kickers and those with slightly twisted moralities.

 

[Kalanyr]

At the risk of an 'off topic' sidetrack.

I've read this thread and it seems some people use the Lawful side of the Paladins nature to keep a hold on the Paladin Code *.

If it's allowed in those games how is the Holy Liberator type expected to behave? Is their chaotic nature more of a license to slaughter?


* - The Paladin Code
10 Detect Evil
20 Smite
30 Goto 10

Hmmm a good question. I guess I use "Do as you will so long as you harm no other" as the basic CG tenet, killing somebody is definitely harming another, and a chaotic doesn't exactly have the good of the many excuse to fall back on, intriguing, I really have to think about that. I suppose in the end if a being is harming others he waves his right not to be harmed, but only in proportion to the harm he's done, in other words a holy liberator IMC shouldn't meet out Smite Death to anyone pinging as Evil, since they may not have murdered another.

 

[Rolgath]

Allow them to repent? Nay!

It is the job of priests to convert the unbelievers, paladins are the mailed fist of god, designed to smash heretics and cause mayhem amonst the heathens.

That being said, a true paladin would not kill someone on the road, instead would follow him home to his evil cronies and slay the lot of them.

I do not feel a paladin would normally strike someone based soley on their detect. The detect is a radar of sorts which allows paladins to determine who bears further watching.

Now having said that, the rules vary alot from GM to GM. Some GM's feel that a paladin can get away with cold bloded murder if the end furthers the cause of their church, some believe that unless you are Sir Galahad, your screwed.

Personally, I think paladin's are the most fun to play as the Special Forces of God. Designed to cause meyhem in the furtherment of God's call.

Rolgath