Does evil mean Evil? Is a paladin free to act against evil?

[Thotas]

I think that Thornir's point about the Evil descriptor as opposed to an evil alignment is the most crucial point here. Yes, it's true that the detect evil spell does detect strength gradients, and those are important too. Faint evil is easier to convert to another viewpoint than Overwhelming evil is, for obvious reasons, calling for different modes of dealing with the creature. But the descriptor is a measure not of the evil's strength, but it's nature. Inherent vs. learned, and that may make more difference to paladin than the strength of the evil does. So we have a lemure reading as "Moderate" according to the spell description, but you could have a Cleric who reads as "Overwhelming" once he can cast Blade Barrier, and as is pointed out earlier, if you read things as written, that Cleric could be LN! There's no indication that the Paladin (or anyone else casting Detect [any other alignment component]) can tell if the quality detected is instrinsic or not. So I'd say that for these reasons and others, (like polymorhed creaturess, and preventing dominated paladins from being the perfect murder weapon) I'd say no, the Paladin doesn't have the grounds to attack, but he's definately got the grounds to take a little extra caution and be ready to go if he needs to.

 

[CalrinAlshaw]

In my personal opinion, I think a good DM will consider "detect and attack" from paladins an evil act. Most paladins have an OBLIGATION to take an evil person to authorities. Thats what we call "LAWFUL" now say it with me "LAWFUL". Any paladin will act in accordance of the laws and customs of the place he is in. Unless they are obviously evil in nature for some reason. By "place he is in" meaning, COUNTRY (Yes, forests are part of countries too), cities, etc. Now, if someone knows the exact nature of said monster/NPC, and they are evil, then it is often valid take out such people, and once they are DOWN, do a heal check to make sure they stay alive if they aren't -10 already. If it's an ongoing adventure and there will be no way to safely take an evil monster/NPC around with them as a prisoner, a clean death will suffice, (taking law into his own hands because he has no choice).

Calrin Alshaw

 

[Umbran]

Noting the "every campaign is different" caveat, if we attempt to go by the rulebooks...

In general, a paladin probably does not have the right or duty to simply attempt to slay that which detects as evil, for a number of reasons.

First off, the paladin's Detect Evil is a spell like ability, based off a low-level spell. It can be rather easily fooled, and thus justice demands a more complete picture than the results of a single divination.

Next - alignment is a siort of long-term average of past deeds and motivations. If someone detects as evil, that means that he's done a darned sight more evil stuff than good stuff in the past. However, it does not detect his or her current outlook, actions, and the like. The person in question may be on the reform, may be on a quest with major Good prospects. Maybe he's evil, but has already paid his debt to society as defined by the society's legal system, and so on....

Finally, there is that whole "respect for life" thing. You don't slay unless you really have to in order to protect the innocent. Having done evil deeds in the past is not proof positive of future acts, so the ability does not reveal "clear and present danger" to the local populace. Anything less is generally not worthy of such harsh action.

In general, it is important to remember that the paladin isn't just the paragon of good. He's also a paragon of law and justice. He wants the world orderly. You don't go swiging around a sword unless you have pretty solid knowledge that the results will not make the world more disorderly. The paladin has a method to his madness, so to speak.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

If you want to run a campaign dealing in shades of gray, the best way to do this is NOT to toss the alignment system. Doing that lets people delude themselves into thinking that evil means cackling guys in funny clothes with blue lipstick, short guys in gray uniforms with small black moustaches and swastika flags, or evil priests ripping the hearts our of prisoners to sacrifice them to their gods. (Thankfully, there are fewer people this year who see fit to defend that as a legitimate cultural difference than there have been in past years). If you want to really run a shades of gray campaign, it's actually advantageous to be able to say unambiguously that the guy who's fixing you up with the suit of magic fullplate is evil and so is the pimp on the corner. The recognition that evil is a ubiquitous part of the human condition is an important part of a non-black and white campaign. The recognition that living in society with others means tolerating evil within certian bounds and striving to ensure that evil people act within those bounds is what can introduce shades of gray into an otherwise black and white campaign.

And, in answer to the question "should a paladin who meets a random stranger on the road who radiates evil smite him then and there?" the answer is no. By the rules as written, that random stranger could be a 1st level evil commoner who enjoys beating the dogs he keeps at the local fighting pits and is hoping to scrape together enough money to start a cockfighting pit (because he enjoys seeing the pain of the animals), a 2nd level neutral cleric of an evil deity, or a 10th level evil fighter. The random guy who radiates moderate evil could be a weak demon, a mid-level neutral cleric of an evil deity, or a polymorphed ancient Red Dragon. The paladin who smites first and asks questions later will find himself on the wrong end of smiting a 10th level evil barbarian or that ancient red dragon sooner or later and then he'll be a paladin's corpse.

 

[PugioilAudacio]

I'm sorry I don't have time to read this whole thread. I just saw the title, and the comic I was reading just clicked:

http://www.3rdedition.org/bigstick/index.asp?BigStickID=25#BigStickTop

For more effect, read the episodes before and (at least one more) after this.

 

[Anthraxus]

I once had a paladin do this in a bar. She attacked an killed a man without provacation because he detected evil. I had the authorities arrest her, and the player had to "roll-up" a new character.

Just cause you can "detect evil" does not mean you can take the law into your own hands.

Now in a wilderness setting, that might be different. Of course, there are still rules that should follow. A paladin challenging a villain to a fight for instance is more appropriate the stabbing the man in the back or slitting his throat while he sleeps.

We did the same thing in a game once. 4 paladins, a rogue, and me- the chaos loving Wizard.

We walk into a friendly tavern. Paladins put up their "net of detect evil"- 360 degree detect evil. The bartender and a druid-y looking character show up as evil. The bar erupts into confusion as one Paladin *jumps* the bar and starts attacking the bartender, the rest go after the druid. Luckily, some evidence turned up later on, marking the two as bad guys.

My Wizard just loved rolling with the Paladins, because they would detect evil on everybody- total chaos.

I can imagine there being a lot of trouble, and couldn't see the Paladins keeping out of jail -or keeping their Paladin powers- for long. This was in a 'living campaign', and the DM was a bit overwhelmed by the party, I think.

I have seen other situations with the spell Misdirection, where someone detects as evil, but they are not. I have seen people with curses who detect as evil, also.

I wouldn't go around smiting people because they detected as a mild evil, anyway.

-A

 

[Hypersmurf]

So, if it were my paladin? I'd usually talk to the creature and determine its intent before taking offensive action. You never know, maybe it could be converted! Kill an evil creature and the forces of hell are strengthened; far better to try and change its attitude.

Absolutely.

You don't want him serving the Legions of Hell in the afterlife.

You work on him until you have him converted to Goodness.

Then you kill him. 'cos that way you know he's joining the Celestial Host... if you walk away and leave him still breathing, there's no guarantee he won't revert to evil and die before you can catch him again...

Holy Bob. Saving your soul with a greatsword since 1350 DR.

-Hyp.

 

[DGFan]

Of course there are legal ramifications. "He was evil," isn't a strong defense in court, and you're likely to go to jail/gallows anyway.

Well, it depends on the laws of your country, doesn't it? I could see Paladins being Judge Dredd types. So maybe walking up to an evil dude in the middle of the street, grabbing him by the neck, and shouting "This is what happens ti evil in Middleton" right before you remove his head, might be completely, perfectly legal in Middleton.

As to the original question, low grades of evil detected should definitely be handled differently from the higher grades.

 

[DGFan]

Holy Bob. Saving your soul with a greatsword since 1350 DR.

Thank you for bringing up the terrible memories I have of DMing Jesus and Muhammed, the Holy Warriors. Muhammed was actually ok. But Jesus kept running around shouting "I love you" right before he lopped people's heads off with his greatsword. His alignment was Lawful Stupid IIRC.

 

[Kalanyr]

Hmmm Hyp brings up a good point, a Paladin has a holy duty to kill anyone who's good, convert the neutral to good and THEN kill them (or failing that kill them so they can't go evil) and to convert the evil and then kill them or failing that permanently soul bind them so they can't join the fiendish forces. Hehe, Paladins should lobby for Detect Good as well as Detect Evil.

The Heavenly Host Recruiting Brigade Depopulating the Multiverse since 1372 DR.