D&D 5E does it seem lke tcoe Order of scribes wizard is largely solutions in search of a problem dressed up as an archetype?

[Don Durito]

Deleted as the post I was responding to was edited to be not quite so pointless.

 

[BacchusNL]

Is too.

I mean, if you can provide no proof of why it is a false dichotomoy then this will be as far as your discussions will go. Good for you?

 

[Don Durito]

I mean, if you can provide no proof of why it is a false dichotomoy then this will be as far as your discussions will go. Good for you?

If you check back you'll note I edited my response even before I saw the reply as I could already see this line of discussion would end up being utterly tedious.

I just find the idea of a baseline for the hobby that is not fundamentally about creating your own stuff utterly dreary.

 

[clearstream]

If you check back you'll note I edited my response even before I saw the reply as I could already see this line of discussion would end up being utterly tedious.

Since Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations it has been hard to argue for definitions of games that go further than - this is what we normally count as the given game.

In terms of advancing a fruitful discussion, one could reject an appeal to norms in favour of some other principle, such as to more creative or balanced play. In that vein, I feel that regardless of if hardcovers do or don't offer spell books to find, the Order of Scribes subclass is flavourful. It also appears to me fairly balanced: neither over-strong nor heavily over-shadowed.

A question to pursue is then whether the proficiency bonus casts per day with Manifest Mind is too limiting? I suspect it will be the ratio of uses to combat rounds (between rests) that matters most. The wizard can likely use it once per encounter, but only once per few to several combat rounds. I suspect that the exploitable aspects of MM are more front-loaded anyhow: they matter more as the combat starts, than in later turns. So I expect that the constraint will not feel too limiting to players.

 

[clearstream]

I just find the idea of a baseline for the hobby that is not fundamentally about creating your own stuff utterly dreary.

I'd urge you to reflect more on the constitutive nature of game rules, and what they bring to your game. You mentioned before a false dichotomy, but here you appear to be relying on one.

 

[BacchusNL]

If you check back you'll note I edited my response even before I saw the reply as I could already see this line of discussion would end up being utterly tedious.

I just find the idea of a baseline for the hobby that is not fundamentally about creating your own stuff utterly dreary.

Dreary you say? Ohh my, we can't have that. However it helps to have an established baseline so the rest of us can have a fruitful discussion. So if you don't mind we'll just stick to the one we've been using for 5+ years now?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Dreary you say? Ohh my, we can't have that. However it helps to have an established baseline so the rest of us can have a fruitful discussion. So if you don't mind we'll just stick to the one we've been using for 5+ years now?

That will be homebrew then.

 

[BacchusNL]

That will be homebrew then.

Homebrew is, by definition, a variation on the baseline. Not the baseline itself.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

On the other hand, I agree with his call that Manifest Mind is strong. Extra range is almost always incredible. It also seems like you don't need LOS to the spot you manifest it in, and then gain LOS from that spot (does that sound right?!)

Yup, it's exactly right: "While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)". "Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses."

Which is why the original artificer version was so broken - that version had unlimited attacks and was virtually indestructible. So you could send it out to clear the dungeon whilst everyone sits in a nice safe secure room. The limited use of spells and vulnerability to Dispel Magic makes it not-broken, but it's still very strong. Send it out on it's own as an assassin, or send into to the middle of a horde of enemies and let off those short range AoEs that are so difficult for a squishy wizard to use effectively.

 

[clearstream]

Yup, it's exactly right: "While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)". "Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind’s space, instead of your own, using its senses."

Which is why the original artificer version was so broken - that version had unlimited attacks and was virtually indestructible. So you could send it out to clear the dungeon whilst everyone sits in a nice safe secure room. The limited use of spells and vulnerability to Dispel Magic makes it not-broken, but it's still very strong. Send it out on it's own as an assassin, or send into to the middle of a horde of enemies and let off those short range AoEs that are so difficult for a squishy wizard to use effectively.

It looks fairly clunky to move (it can't dash with you), and can only be manifested once between long rests without expending a spell slot.

It feels perhaps a notch below Diviner and Bladesinger. I've seen both in play and their features are strong. Especially now that BS can be any race, with all that implies.

OTOH being able to cast a few times a day from a spot up to 300' from you - and out of your normal LOS - could be excellent! +darkvision...