D&D 5E Does the "Friends" cantrip need a fix?

[ShadowSeeker]

Friends gives advantage on all Charisma checks towards a creature for 1 minute. Advantage is pretty good. But I have two problems with the spell.

1. I'm aware the spell is only a cantrip and must have a limitation of some sort to prevent using it on every Charisma check. But I think that turning the target hostile is pretty harsh. This way I wouldn't even use it on some merchant.

My suggestion would be that the target creature turns hostile for 2d6 days and the next Charisma against the creature even after that period is with disadvantage.

2. My second problem with the spell is the short duration. Actually I can't imagine a lot of useful situations for the spell. My first idea for the spell was to cast it while haggling with a merchant. But with such a short duration the merchant would turn hostile until he has fetched the item.

My suggestion would be to extend the duration to 1 hour but limit advantage to only one check during the spell's duration.

What do you think?

 

[pming]

Hiya!

I don't have any problem with it. I think the 1 minute duration is fine...and I think it's perfect to prevent the abuse you were complaining about not being able to purportrate.

The "limit" is that you piss off everyone you cast it on. That's a pretty big drawback; you are exchanging "An NPC who doesn't care one way or the other about me" to "An NPC who hates me because I screwed him over with magic". Seeing as the spell is all about Charisma and role-playing interactions...having that drawback is pretty big.

The primary use of the spell, I think, would be to use it for persuasion in "sticky situations". Convincing the guard to take a message to the magister at 2am...giving you enough time to break out of jail. Or maybe using it to convince the farm girls father that you really love her and will make an honest woman out of her if he just gives you a chance (and enough time to put on your boots and grab your clothes). Or to convince the ogre warmaster to not flay you and your party alive and toss them into the cooking pot just yet (giving you another chance to escape). This is, I think the primary use of this spell.

Using the spell as a permanent "money grab" or "game the system" type thing so you get more money or better items all the time? Nope. Not in my game anyway, sorry.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[steeldragons]

I have to agree with Paul.

As you note, it's a cantrip. Bumping it to an hour duration is overpowered/puts it en par with a 1st level spell. If you want no limits "help me out", then use Charm Person. That's what it's for (and it's duration is 1 hour).

If you want/need a momentary, "Can you do this for me/let us through/listen to me, pleeeease" and take the chance of getting your way with an advantage roll in an interactive situation, then use Friends...as intended.

So, to the question at hand, "Does Friends need a fix?", the answer is, "No. It doesn't."

 

[Moorcrys]

Also, an enchanter wizard can make the target forget it was enspelled when they reach high enough level I believe, making this cantrip pretty powerful for them considering there's no save.

 

[Mephista]

If you're good with disguises, or have the spell, the Friend cantrip is actually very potent. You'll also notice that it doesn't call for a save, making it more effective on elves and paladins than a mundane Charm Person.

Frankly, I consider it one of the more powerful cantrips in existence.

 

[Zelc]

The spell isn't called "Best Friends Forever". It gets you a friend that you'll either backstab in 1 minute or hopefully never see again.

 

[keterys]

Friends is a pretty awful cantrip at anything you'd think it was intentionally designed to do, though it does have a couple very specific uses.

1) Instant response checks, like getting someone to open a door for you, create a distraction, or potentially to secure a surprise round.
2) Disguised reaction forcing. Use disguise self or similar and then use Friends to create enemies.

For most other uses, you pretty much lose because of its duration, limited effect, downside, _and_ the fact that you're casting a spell.

Duration: Want to convince the guard to go to the magister? Unfortunately it took you half the duration just to say the requisite sentences, then he got the key, went to the door, opened it and said "Hey, wait" - so he never even left your sight. Depending on the DM, the spell will often intrinsically be useless except as a distraction because conversations themselves take longer than a minute in general (for real fun use a timer at the table)

Limited Effect: Advantage is nice, but Guidance would likely make the difference between failure and success just as often. Layering the two can work better, of course, but even then you're not getting anything special out of the person from the cantrip. In fact, comparing it to Guidance gets a bit rough since Friends is much more limited, doesn't stack with other advantage sources like an assist (_very_ easy in talky situations) and inspiration, and has a duration and downside.

Downside: The person instantly snaps hostile. This is actually a very strong effect, one you can game around, but as downsides go, on a spell that doesn't even ensure momentary success in the first place, it's pretty rough.

Casting: To get best use out of it, you need to cast it before you get near the target, requiring even more setup and duration. Because if you're in a jail cell, cast an obvious spell, then try to talk to the guard, then you probably just gave yourself disadvantage on whatever you were trying to do. Or possibly a crossbow bolt to the face. I've seen _more_ attempts to cast an enchantment turn into "Roll initiative" than I've seen successful uses of Friends at the table.

In fact, I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that I've never seen a successful use of Friends as intended, mostly because either dice result would have succeeded in the few instances where it was cast without a hitch.

I have seen using Disguise Self + Friends to create enemies, though. It's a ridiculous side effect, but at least it actually works, unlike the theoretical purpose of the cantrip

 

[keterys]

TLDR version:

Do any or all of the following -
1) Extend the duration to 10 minutes
2) Explicitly make the casting subtle, woven into your speech
3) Make the target suspicious of the entire interaction and realize he's been magically meddled with afterwards, but not innately hostile.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Friends is a pretty awful cantrip at anything you'd think it was intentionally designed to do, though it does have a couple very specific uses.

1) Instant response checks, like getting someone to open a door for you, create a distraction, or potentially to secure a surprise round.

"You don't need to see his identification. These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Instant response is exactly what it's for.

What I would change--not for balance reasons, but for Rule of Cool--is the material component. Putting on makeup while pulling the Jedi mind trick is... well, dumb.

 

[keterys]

"You don't need to see his identification. These aren't the droids you're looking for."

Sorry, but they shot you when you started casting.

Also, it's only advantage, not mind control, so it doesn't change their perception.

Oh and it wore off when you were half a block away bringing the entire garrison looking for a jedi. Mission failed

So, yeah, I only wish it were that cool.