D&D 5E Does the "Friends" cantrip need a fix?

I like the friends cantrip.

Remember: 1 Minute is plenty of time, if you consider, speaking a few sentences is a "free" action.
Also if you think about how far you can run in that time (why is there no run action btw...?).

It is just a spell to talk yourself more easily out of a dire situation and then run for it. Not a replacement for good roleplay.
 

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Also if you think about how far you can run in that time (why is there no run action btw...?).

That's what the Dash action represents. AD&D had additional options for running even faster than a double speed, and if someone in 5E wanted to do that I'd steal those rules: you can go to 3x speed with a Strength (Athletics) DC 10 check every round, or 4x speed with two Strength (Athletics) DC 12 checks per round, or 5x speed with three Strength (Athletics) DC 14 checks per round, etc. Once you fail one you have to stop and walk it off (maybe gain a temporary level of exhaustion).

(You may think it sounds crazy to allow a PC a chance of running 15 mph for six seconds just by making three DC 14 checks, but if you stop and think about it, high school kids do that all the time. Is there anything wrong with allowing a 5th level fighter with Str 18 a 50% chance of running as fast as a high school kid for a few seconds at a time? No, there is not.)
 

ShadowSeeker

First Post
I am confused as to why the primary metric for evaluating Friends is how effectively it can be used in a bartering situation. That is far from the only circumstance in which charisma checks come up in my game!

This was just an example for a everyday situation where a Charisma check and thus "Friends" could be useful. The situation was chosen to show the problem with the duration of "Friends" when negotiating.


In fact, it almost never comes up in my game, and if it did, I wouldn't want Friends to give an automatic discount on everything.

Why would "Friends" give an automatic discount on everything? It only gives advantage on Charisma checks. As there are almost no rules on skills it is up to the DM to decide how a successful or good Charisma check would benefit you while bartering.



Friends should be for pulling off some sort of short-term con, where the caster is gone the moment the spell wears off. This sort of stuff happens in movies all the time.
Obviously you see "Friends" more as a getaway spell. I can understand that, as it is probably the only useful situation for the spell. But I think it's a pity that you can't use the spell as a "diplomat" while negotiating.


And, again, I think the word "hostile" is being misinterpreted and overblown here. Nobody is getting murdered for an innocuous use of friends, and there are plenty of uses of the spell that could cause hostility that is non-violent and not a major impediment. I live in a city. I encounter people who are hostile to me all the time.
I think the part with the murdering was just a joke.


Same with the duration of a minute. If somebody pulls out a pen and paper and works out that, actually, from the time of casting this spell, to approaching the target, to attempting to persuade the target, a total of 103 seconds would have elapsed, I will throw a die at that person. It's a ball-park duration, folks. Just like the actual duration of actions that can be taken in a combat round of 6 seconds varies from one action to the other. It gives us a general sense of how much time is available, but it's not to handcuff us to some sort of imaginary in-game clock that none of us can actually see.
It is not about whether the conversation lasts 59 seconds or 61 seconds. The point is, in just a minute you can only have a very short conversation. Any conversation that would involve some sort of persuasion would last longer otherwise it wouldn't be much of a persuasion. Therefore "Friends" can't be used for negotiations or deception where you have to explain things.

The next level up, 10 minutes, is a long time, allowing for multiple extremely complex interactions. With a duration of that long, I could con a guard and then run 2 miles.

What would be wrong with that? With a simple Charisma Check I can con a guard and run 100 miles.
 

redrick

First Post
This was just an example for a everyday situation where a Charisma check and thus "Friends" could be useful. The situation was chosen to show the problem with the duration of "Friends" when negotiating.

Why would "Friends" give an automatic discount on everything? It only gives advantage on Charisma checks. As there are almost no rules on skills it is up to the DM to decide how a successful or good Charisma check would benefit you while bartering.

If Friends can be used painlessly to improve a character's bartering ability, it is an automatic discount on a routine action. Characters purchase items almost every time they are in town. We generally don't role-play these at all, as it's a rather boring role-play, unless they're trying to buy something outlandish. However, if a player knew that he could use the Friends cantrip to get a 15-25% discount from shopkeepers (say a 10 minute duration before the spell wore off), these things would go like this:

DM: It's morning, what do you do?

Friends Caster: I go to the store to buy healing potions.

DM: Ok. Those are 50 gp each.

Friends Caster: Great. I cast Friends and try to barter with him. I roll a 17 on my persuasion check. What do I get?

DM: Umm, I guess you pay 80 gp. But he will be pissed at you in 9 minutes.

Friends Caster: Awesome! We're on our way to the dungeon anyway! I'll just buy from a different shop-keeper next time.

DM: It's fun doing that every time you meet a new shop-keeper.

Obviously you see "Friends" more as a getaway spell. I can understand that, as it is probably the only useful situation for the spell. But I think it's a pity that you can't use the spell as a "diplomat" while negotiating.

Well, also as a get-in spell. Maybe you are sneaking into an enemy city or fortress. The rest of your party is hiding in the back of the wagon, fully armed and ready for action. You've disguised yourself in an enemy uniform, and all you need to do is convince the sentry at the walls that they don't need to check your wagon too carefully. Once you get through the checkpoint, you can hope to disappear while the guard raises the alarm and locks the whole place down. Now, maybe you say, "I dunno. That could take a while." Which is where the check comes in. If you kick butt on your check, the guard waves you through without questions. You have about 45 seconds, or about 8 combat rounds, to disappear before the guard realizes that he's been had. If you squeak by on the check, there's some back and forth with the guard. You get through ok, but while you are still in view of the gate, the guard realizes that he's been had, and sounds the alarm. Now you can either try to run away, or stand your ground. At least you are on the other side of the walls, where you stand a better chance than out in front of the gates.

That's a risky use of the spell, but it's fun, and it might be your only option if nobody else in your party is able to pull off disguises. (Maybe you are the only one with the performance skill?) Maybe you are prepared with a charm person spell in case things get out of hand, but you'd rather save your spell slot if you can. Maybe it's not a super well fortified position, but you'd still rather fight from the inside than the outside.

I see this spell as having creative applications. I don't see the fact that it doesn't have a simple application in a mundane situation (bartering) as a drawback. I don't mind that it doesn't help with diplomatic situations. The name might be a bit of a mis-nomer, as it is more "False Friends." It's a con spell, and, as a cantrip, it's fairly limited in scope.

I think the part with the murdering was just a joke.

Sure, but the attitude is that the hostility is a game-ender. My point is just that having somebody be hostile towards you doesn't have to be a show-stopper in plenty of situations. Hostility can be pretty minor, or pretty catastrophic.


It is not about whether the conversation lasts 59 seconds or 61 seconds. The point is, in just a minute you can only have a very short conversation. Any conversation that would involve some sort of persuasion would last longer otherwise it wouldn't be much of a persuasion. Therefore "Friends" can't be used for negotiations or deception where you have to explain things.

It's not about whether the conversation lasts 30 seconds or 2 minutes. That's my point. D&D is not the place to precisely time out the length of your interactions. But, yes, it is only going to work on fairly simple interactions. Distractions. Getting somebody to accept something at face value. Intimidations. "Let me in. Let me through. I am a member of your army, just as my costume would suggest. There is nothing strange about me leaving this satchel here. Talking to me is more interesting than standing at your post. I think they went that way. A boy fell down the well and if you don't climb down there this second, he will die!" If you need to explain a lengthy concept, or have a complicated series of back and forth interactions, Friends probably won't do it for you.

The spell is meant to give you enough time to convince somebody of something simple, and then, if you do everything right, put a couple of hundred feet between you and the person you've just pissed off. (Or a couple of crossbow bolts in the back.)

What would be wrong with that? With a simple Charisma Check I can con a guard and run 100 miles.

Sure, but you have a much better chance of succeeding with Friends.

EDITED TO ADD:

I am totally open to the idea that Friends might need a tiny bit of buffing. Personally, in my game, I would rule that Friends opens the door to kinds of persuasion that might not otherwise be available. So you might be able to convince someone of something with Friends and a Charisma check that you might not be able to convince them of with a simple Persuasion check. Personally, I think that opens the spell up for use in situations where the risks (hostility before you can get away) keep things interesting. My problem is with measuring the effectiveness of Friends by how well it handles negotiation with a merchant. I don't think that's what the spell is really for. The spell is for quick-con interaction encounters, and its effectiveness should be measured in those types of circumstances.
 
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seconds or 2 minutes. That's my point. D&D is not the place to precisely time out the length of your interactions. But, yes, it is only going to work on fairly simple interactions. Distractions. Getting somebody to accept something at face value. Intimidations. "Let me in. Let me through. I am a member of your army, just as my costume would suggest. There is nothing strange about me leaving this satchel here. Talking to me is more interesting than standing at your post. I think they went that way. A boy fell down the well and if you don't climb down there this second, he will die!" If you need to explain a lengthy concept, or have a complicated series of back and forth interactions, Friends probably won't do it for you.

Most of these concepts are either trivial (shouldn't require a check at all, like "I think they went that way") or drastic enough that trying to persuade someone to do it in a single sentence would be either impossible or, if possible, at least impose disadvantage for pressure tactics.

"A boy fell down that well, and if you don't climb down there that second, he will die!"
"You climb down. I'm busy guarding this doorway. Bratty kids are always climbing on things--not my problem anyway."
[At this point you'd normally have a conversation, and try to overcome his objection--but the player can't afford to take the time because Friends is going to run out soon, so he just rushes onward]
"No, it has to be you, and it has to be right now! Please, this is really important!"
DM: Okay, fine. Normally I would just say "No" because you haven't addressed his concern at all but I feel nice today and so does the guard. Roll Persuasion at disadvantage.
Player: Okay, so it's normal then due to Friends.
DM: Yep.

This isn't because the DM is trying to be a jerk, it's because the player is doing a terrible job at roleplaying the conversation due to time constraints from Friends. You're better off not casting it and just playing it out normally, especially because Friends only works on one creature.
 

Coredump

Explorer
When I started playing 5E, I thought Freinds was horrible and would never take it. As I played by first two characters, I kept coming across situations where I thought "This would be a great time for Friends.... "

As I made my third PC, I took Friends. (He is knew, haven't used him yet)

There are many situations where I want to get some information, or a small favor, and don't really care if they are mad at me later.

The town had a prisoner, we wanted her to give us information..... Friends would have made it easier to get that info.
We needed to get into town, and needed the guard to let us in....Friends would have made that easier
We were pretending to be part of a cult, and needed another cult member to open the room door....Friends would have made that easier.
etc
etc


Sure *sometimes* you can try Working Together.... but that doesn't always work for Cha situations....

And Hostile is not a permanent condition. If I insult their mother, they will also get hostile... doesn't mean I can't do something to smooth things over.
 

redrick

First Post
Most of these concepts are either trivial (shouldn't require a check at all, like "I think they went that way") or drastic enough that trying to persuade someone to do it in a single sentence would be either impossible or, if possible, at least impose disadvantage for pressure tactics.

"A boy fell down that well, and if you don't climb down there that second, he will die!"
"You climb down. I'm busy guarding this doorway. Bratty kids are always climbing on things--not my problem anyway."
[At this point you'd normally have a conversation, and try to overcome his objection--but the player can't afford to take the time because Friends is going to run out soon, so he just rushes onward]
"No, it has to be you, and it has to be right now! Please, this is really important!"
DM: Okay, fine. Normally I would just say "No" because you haven't addressed his concern at all but I feel nice today and so does the guard. Roll Persuasion at disadvantage.
Player: Okay, so it's normal then due to Friends.
DM: Yep.

This isn't because the DM is trying to be a jerk, it's because the player is doing a terrible job at roleplaying the conversation due to time constraints from Friends. You're better off not casting it and just playing it out normally, especially because Friends only works on one creature.

Character acting aside, implicit in the attempt to use Friends is the character's intention to complete the action within the 1 minute time frame. So, as long as the player and I both agree that there is a way that somebody could be convinced of something in 1 minute, I don't need the player to act out that exact dialogue for me. That's where the charisma check comes in. Can the character effectively convince somebody of something quickly and forcefully? And 1 minute gives you a lot more than 1 sentence. It gives you about 1 script page. Pulling up a script page at random, I see 10 character character lines (as in a different character says something. Some are just 1 sentence, some are two or 3 sentences), and some blocking and scene description. That's quite a bit of interaction, much more than you give above.

Here's how the above scene would work, on a successful performance or persuasion roll:

---

CASTER BOB pulls something out of a pouch at his waste and smears it on his face. Suddenly, he seems to exude an air of trustworthiness. He rushes towards THE GUARD and starts waving his arms agitatedly.

CASTER BOB
Oh my god! A little kid just fell into that well! You've gotta help him! Quick! I think he's already drowning!

The guard looks at Caster Bob with some suspicion, but finds him strangely convincing. Still he holds his ground.

GUARD
Well, I don't know, sir. I'm supposed to be holding this post. It's not really my job to look after these stupid kids.

CASTER BOB
He's drowning! There's nobody else nearby! And here, let me give you this rope! Please!

The guard looks towards the well, and finds Caster Bob's urgency contagious. He throws down his halberd, grabs the rope, and launches himself towards the well.

GUARD
I am coming to save you, child!

The guard descends into the well for about 15 seconds (3 combat rounds, 45 feet, if the well is deep enough).

GUARD
Wait a minute, something here is terribly wrong. Alarm!

Meanwhile, 150 feet away (3 combat rounds, dashing), a group of 6 heavily armed adventurers race towards the Big Unprotected Magic Thing in the center of the square.

---

I think that would all fit on a script page.

Of course, the player doesn't have to come up with all that. All he has to say is, "I'm going to try to convince the guard to climb into the well to pull out a fallen child." At which point I, as the DM would say, "Ok, give me a persuasion check of 17, with advantage. Since you have +5 on persuasion, you'll need a 12 or more on one of the two d20s." (I wouldn't say that last part actually, but just for illustration.)
 

Of course, the player doesn't have to come up with all that. All he has to say is, "I'm going to try to convince the guard to climb into the well to pull out a fallen child." At which point I, as the DM would say, "Ok, give me a persuasion check of 17, with advantage. Since you have +5 on persuasion, you'll need a 12 or more on one of the two d20s." (I wouldn't say that last part actually, but just for illustration.)

I would find your scenario compelling if the guard were guarding nothing important (celebrity entrance to a concert, etc.). For a trained guard who's actually guarding a Big Unprotected Magic Thing of any value, I can see two scenarios: either he knows about social engineering attacks or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you automatically succeed without a Persuasion check at all. If he does, you're not going to get around him in a single sentence like that, no matter what you roll on your Charisma check. Just, no.[1]

[1] Except that my campaign also has the rule of yes, which means that anything succeeds the first time you try it in a campaign. But the second time you try to persuade an alert guard that someone has fallen into a well, I'll use rules, and that will mean "No, unless you give him a reason to change his mind."
 

I always think of friends being used to enhance the effectiveness of flirtation. That's one reason I eliminate the automatic hostility and automatic knowing that magic was used. If you use friends to flirt up an NPC and get them to do something stupid, they are probably much more likely to assume it was their "heated blood" (ie hormones) that was influencing them than magic.

Now, on the other hand, if you use friends like that on the same person everyday--oh yeah are they going to be hostile when they finally catch on.
 

redrick

First Post
I would find your scenario compelling if the guard were guarding nothing important (celebrity entrance to a concert, etc.). For a trained guard who's actually guarding a Big Unprotected Magic Thing of any value, I can see two scenarios: either he knows about social engineering attacks or he doesn't. If he doesn't, you automatically succeed without a Persuasion check at all. If he does, you're not going to get around him in a single sentence like that, no matter what you roll on your Charisma check. Just, no.[1]

[1] Except that my campaign also has the rule of yes, which means that anything succeeds the first time you try it in a campaign. But the second time you try to persuade an alert guard that someone has fallen into a well, I'll use rules, and that will mean "No, unless you give him a reason to change his mind."

Well, it is multiple sentences. Which is mostly what I'm trying to illustrate. Pick up a page from a script and see how much gets covered in one page. It's a lot more than one quick exchange. We allow one quick exchange within a single combat round. A minute, or even 45 seconds, allowing a few moments to start your getaway, gives you the time to either make a lengthy and impassioned speech, or to have a series of short back and forth exchanges. If you are acting with purpose (as anyone under the circumstances would), you can say quite a bit in a minute.

But, of course, your mileage may vary on the individual scenario, and a DC of 17 is probably too low for that exact scenario. I might also expect the players to do a little more convincing to pull it off. For instance, in the well scenario, the sound of something splashing in the well would help. Maybe followed by screams coming from around the well. (Is the character able to convince people standing around the well to act agitated? How?) The persuasion of the guard is the final icing on the cake, with a little bit of extra kick from Friends, because you really need to sell it. Similarly, if we're using Friends to sneak into an enemy army encampment, you already need to successfully disguise yourself, and maybe come up with the appropriate costumes or equipment. It all depends on the circumstances, but Friends could definitely be employed in many of them to help really sell a lynch-pin bit of convincing under a time constraint.

(Smuggling a wagon through a check-point is a particularly good example of where you really want that to happen with One Quick Interaction, because the longer you spend at that check-point, the more likely the guard is going to want to see what's in the back of that wagon.)
 

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