Does the ranged character stink?

[Darklone]

For some builds, crossbow sniper is great. I was building an archer character with the compression psionic power, and avoiding a penalty as my strength dropped was agravating. Then I found the crossbow sniper feat! Yum.

You´re right, I love the feat too. Still, even the last two Xbow specialists we had didn´t come close in raw damage output to a pure fighter archer or even the bard archer.

But the 60ft sneak attack range rocks. Twin handcrossbows with the reload enhancement, TWF and Rapid Shot... and a slighty generous DM... and you´ll have a real nice sneak attack smackdown.

 

[AnonymousOne]

PS- Does anyone have some insight into why there is no analog for the Xbow Sniper feat using 'regular' bows? Is it just the reloading thing? If so, big whoop, you only get the Sneak Attack/Skirmish damage on the first arrow anyway; what's the big deal if you get an extra one or two attacks? Any thoughts again would be appreciated.

Rapid Reload anyone?

According to the way I see the text this allows full use of the iterative attacks etc, as well as feats like Manyshot etc.

 

[Patlin]

you only get the Sneak Attack/Skirmish damage on the first arrow anyway; what's the big deal if you get an extra one or two attacks?

In good humor: Bite your tounge! Do not say such things!

You can get skirmish and/or sneak attack damage on ever attack that qualifies. There are many ways of making sure your full attack sequence gets to benefit from damage of either type.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

In good humor: Bite your tounge! Do not say such things!

You can get skirmish and/or sneak attack damage on ever attack that qualifies. There are many ways of making sure your full attack sequence gets to benefit from damage of either type.

...None of which, apparently, will be shared.

Here's one: Since one target can't get sneak attack damage from multiple hits, attack multiple targets.

 

[phindar]

My first real character in 3.0 (that is to say, the first character I made and played, and wasn't made for me by someone else so I could sit in on a session) was an archer. Fighter/Ranger with the alt Ranger combat style that let me get Dodge and some ranged feats, and then up through Deepwood Sniper and OotBI (hey, we were young). Shot on the Run was very useful from moving from total cover to attack and then back to total cover.

As far as power went, I was a little behind the curve until 8th or 9th level, where the build started to click and I was doing more damage than the party tank. (About 40 points a round, but the tank might not have been fully opt and it was 3.0 anyway.) Being able to stand on one spot and deliver full attacks every round was a bonus, as opposed to the melee characters who had to run hell and gone all over the board every round.

Good times.

 

[avr]

...None of which, apparently, will be shared.

Here's one: Since one target can't get sneak attack damage from multiple hits, attack multiple targets.

I don't think this is right. Unless it's specifically called out (Manyshot, spells with multiple rays or other 'volley' attacks) you can sneak attack to your hearts content. Rapid shot or a high BAB work just fine. From the FAQ:

If a rogue gets multiple attacks in a round (such as from
a high base attack bonus or the Rapid Shot feat), can she
make sneak attacks for all of them?
Yes, but only if each attack meets a requirement to be a
sneak attack. For instance, a rogue who flanks an enemy can
deliver a sneak attack with every melee attack she makes. A
rogue under the effect of a greater invisibility spell treats every
attack as a sneak attack, since she remains invisible despite
attacking.
If later attacks in a round no longer meet any requirement
to be a sneak attack, they aren’t sneak attacks. For example, a
rogue under the effect of an invisibility spell would deal sneak
attack damage only with her first attack in a round, because she
turns visible as soon as she makes the attack.

 

[InVinoVeritas]

Hmm, yeah, that's probably right.

I just always play at low levels, so I don't think I've ever seen multiple attacks that didn't come from such a source. (How low level have I played? My maximum level I've played at for all of 3.0/3.5 is 5.)

 

[Patlin]

OK, I'll share some. The majority are very simple.

Rogue 16/Ranger 4 with BAB 16 will get sneak attack damage on all 7 attacks while flanking an eligible target, even against a single target. (4 from BAB, 1 each TWF, ITWF, GTWF.) This is an example just to show a simple way to get a very high number of sneak attacks.

Sneak attack is available on every attack (on an eligible target who cannot see both normally and ethereally at the same time) when blinking. (A ring of blink for a normal rogue, or the blink spell for an Arcane Trickster... better yet, the improved blink spell.)

A flat footed, blinded or stunned target gets sneak attacked by everyone with the ability on all attacks.

Skirmish is harder, but still plenty doable. Greater Manyshot is the easiest way if you are a ranged character, but there are ways to move as a swift action:

Hustle, from the XPH.

Inconstant Location from Complete Psionic.

Many things from Bo9S such as Sudden Leap, Shadow Blink, a stance that allows you to move 10' with a 5' step, and a bunch of maneuvers that involve moving as part of your strike.

Several spring attack related feats from PHBII.

A bunch of magic items that allow either a free move action or movement as a swift item, in magic item compendium.

 

[ThePublic]

I think that the number one issue here isn't just the feat mix, or the class mix.

It's just that if you jump classes every level the inevitable happens- you get 1st level skills against higher level encounters which equals dissatisfying results- nearly every time. I say opt with the fighter (or heck if ya wanna be sneaky, go with a rogue) and just ride it out and put you feats into ranged things (as shown above).

Well that or since he is mainly a role player instead of a roll-player the thief option will give him the sneaky sniper bits and allow him to have ranks in all those role type skills that make your line of crap you spout at the GM actually have teeth (as you will have bluff and diplomacy, and whatever knowledge you want to throw in) since you get the most skill points per level as a thief (yeah, I just hate saying rogue, so I guess that I am not over the new editions- sue me).

If you want to be a ranged battle-god, then fighter is still the best option to date (really, feat at every level, a d10, limitless type of weapon and armour- heck what more do you want?)

But hey.... what do I know anyway?

 

[mcgeedis]

If you want to be a ranged battle-god, then fighter is still the best option to date (really, feat at every level, a d10, limitless type of weapon and armour- heck what more do you want?)

But hey.... what do I know anyway?

That was more or less what I was getting at. Yes, perhaps some of the feat choices or the class selection wasn't the best. I was trying to figure out why the general perception is that the standard bow and arrow character, well, stinks?

It seems to me that it would be possible to make a great ranged character, but you need to take a feat at every level almost. And even then you have to have your character's feat selection drawn out from level 1 to level 20 in order to get the most out of ranged combat. Would you say that is correct, or am I just plain wrong?