Does the ranged character stink?

[Legildur]

It seems to me that it would be possible to make a great ranged character, but you need to take a feat at every level almost. And even then you have to have your character's feat selection drawn out from level 1 to level 20 in order to get the most out of ranged combat. Would you say that is correct, or am I just plain wrong?

I don't know about wrong, but certainly there are some smart feat choices and some dumb feat choices if you want to excel at ranged combat. But the basic feats are pretty straightforward to it effective, if not outstanding.

One clear advantage a bow user can achieve at higher levels is to use a +1 bow with multiple effects stacked on (flaming, keen, holy etc) and then use a Greater Magic Weapon spell (from whatever source) to boost the arrows to higher than +1, so that you can, in effect, have a net magic bonus on the ammunition in excess of +10.

Archers also excel in other ways - they can almost always engage the enemy - regardless of location. Melee oriented characters need to close. Sure, maybe they do more damage once they get there, but in the meantime the ranged character has been whittling away the hit points.

 

[Patlin]

That was more or less what I was getting at. Yes, perhaps some of the feat choices or the class selection wasn't the best. I was trying to figure out why the general perception is that the standard bow and arrow character, well, stinks?

The perception comes from the fact that it used to be a lot easier to do. Removal of the stacking between magic arrows and magic bows, for example, was a significant power down for archers between 3.0 and 3.5. The game designers wanted to encourage/reward getting up into the monsters face in melee.

It's not impossible to create a good ranged character, but it's harder than it used to be.

 

[Felix]

I was trying to figure out why the general perception is that the standard bow and arrow character, well, stinks?

Is this the general perception? If so I must be out of touch; archery has always been a very effective combat style in games I've played in and run.

 

[pawsplay]

I think the character looks solid. Even at the awkward 3rd level with three classes, you have some nice synergies to work with. Shot on the Run is obviously on the menu. I suggest adding spring attack after that, since you already have the prereqs; that way, if you are stuck in a melee situation, you can mitigate the lack of heavy armor. Then it's on to Rapid Shot (for those occasions when you aren't within 30 feet), Manyshot (possibly useful), and finally Greater Manyshot.

Basically, every round, you either move from cover to cover, skirmishing, or you fire several arrows at one, skirmishing for a metric assload of damage. Using a bow with the frost/flaming/whatever property will also drastically magnify the hurt.

 

[pawsplay]

The perception comes from the fact that it used to be a lot easier to do. Removal of the stacking between magic arrows and magic bows, for example, was a significant power down for archers between 3.0 and 3.5. The game designers wanted to encourage/reward getting up into the monsters face in melee.

It's not impossible to create a good ranged character, but it's harder than it used to be.

... until Greater Manyshot came along.

 

[taferial]

Just wanted to mention my experience of a ranged fighter...

I made a ranger with all his feats focused on archery, with the manyshot/ rapid shot feats and some fairly pokey stats iirc.

He was great when it came to mowing down hundreds of 2 hd creatures but suffered greatly against anything bigger. I think he managed to get to 12th lvl before I finaly gave up on him.

now the gm is quite stingy with kit (my 18th lvl warlock still has under 60k of stuff), PHB 2 wasnt out at the time and he refuses to have anything to do with Bo9s should all prolly be taken into account as regards the following points.

book keeping - he had a quiver of elonah(?) rammed full of arrows and a hewards devoted entirely to back up arrows, about 800 of them (and he still needed to leave the dungeon and re-stock evry week).

Damage resistance - DR absolutely crippled my damage output, one particular fight I put over 70 arrows into one guy for a net effect of about 30 damage, I used so many arrows in the 10 by 20 room the gm ruled the 10 squair around him had become dificult terain.

AoO - thers very very few ways to avoid AoO as an archer, especially with the insane reach certain monsters have. It wasnt realy a problem in the open, but once you get inside it became harder and harder to keep out of the way. (though im not sure wether the no AoO on targets with cover rule was being aplied propperly)

Cover/ friendly fire - party members frequently in the line of fire adding cover to the point I needed natural 20's to hit, the party can go off you very rapidly when they have a bum full of arrows. The cost in feats (and the lateness of there arival) to avoid cover penalties I found realy painful.

Im tempted to try an archer/ knife thrower again, but my previous experience realy puts me off. Without some serious Character optermisation, which I dislike, I just cant see the viability of a ranged fighter.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

He should switch con and str. Stength helps with ranged damage and ideally he won't be getting wacked that much.

 

[Diirk]

One clear advantage a bow user can achieve at higher levels is to use a +1 bow with multiple effects stacked on (flaming, keen, holy etc) and then use a Greater Magic Weapon spell (from whatever source) to boost the arrows to higher than +1, so that you can, in effect, have a net magic bonus on the ammunition in excess of +10.

How's that a clear archery advantage? you can do exactly the same thing with melee weapons. Get a holy, flaming, frost longsword +1, then cast greater magic weapon on it. Same thing happens. Heck, you're actually even better off with a melee weapon, you can use a scabbard of keen edges with a sword, you can't with a bow.

 

[irdeggman]

How's that a clear archery advantage? you can do exactly the same thing with melee weapons. Get a holy, flaming, frost longsword +1, then cast greater magic weapon on it. Same thing happens. Heck, you're actually even better off with a melee weapon, you can use a scabbard of keen edges with a sword, you can't with a bow.

Except that single type magic arrows are cheaper than are single type magical melee weapons - basically due to the back that they are consumable.

But because of the fact that they are cheaper (individually) an archer can more readily have an arrow for the specific use needed (can't help but think of Green Arrow or Hawkeye here).

 

[Legildur]

How's that a clear archery advantage? you can do exactly the same thing with melee weapons. Get a holy, flaming, frost longsword +1, then cast greater magic weapon on it. Same thing happens. Heck, you're actually even better off with a melee weapon, you can use a scabbard of keen edges with a sword, you can't with a bow.

Good point. Except you can magic a heap of arrows of different materials or enhancements.....