Does the term "a creature" include yourself?

[Shikami]

Skottie, what you are looking for is on page 106 of Rules Compendium, "Target Definitions" Creature, Enemy and Ally bullet. No, the power in the form that it is written, the target cannot target itself. It is the target and the MBA is against a creature of your choosing, since it is a creature it can be an ally though. Even the Flavor Text of the power, which is used to help understand the mechanics, explains the effects as how the Hit: resolution is read.

Basically, each enemy in the burst is a target. Each of the targets you slide 2 squares, and then make them attack each other as free actions. Which can be handled in any order you desire. Unless it has changed in Arcane Power, but I do not see any updates/errata to the power.

As for Drunken Monkey, it is more about how to be effective as you can be. For as with any power it may not be effective in particular circumstances. If there is no enemy to utilize the manipulation of this power you still have the slide and the movement you can make, of course the damage too. The target will just not be able to make an attack since there is no legitimate targets to chose from. It may be easier to think of this attack to an enemy as a reaction (immediate), which it is. This of course happens after the damage and slide resolution.

 

[Aulirophile]

Skottie, what you are looking for is on page 106 of Rules Compendium, ally bullet. No, the power in the form that it is written, the target cannot target itself. It is the target and the MBA is against a creature of your choosing, since it is a creature it can be an ally though.

"I make the ogre, who is a creature, make an attack against himself." Works fine.

 

[Shikami]

"I make the ogre, who is a creature, make an attack against himself." Works fine.

If specific beats general, then I would agree. However, your power example does not have the defining resolution to make it a logical rebuttal. I edited the error in my previous post because, unless noted, the target cannot target self due to the fact that it is not an enemy of itself which is the defining terms of creature pg 106 Rules Compendium. Therefore it is a non legitimate target.

The ogre is the target and it slides to the players choosing. It then targets a creature which is ally made enemy due to Decree of Khirad. Since the creature needs to be an enemy for the MBA it cannot be itself. If the specifics of the power beat the general rules then yes it could target itself.

 

[Aulirophile]

If specific beats general, then I would agree. However, your power example does not have the defining resolution to make it a logical rebuttal. I edited the error in my previous post because, unless noted, the target cannot target self due to the fact that it is not an enemy of itself which is the defining terms of creature pg 106 Rules Compendium. Therefore it is a non legitimate target.

The ogre is the target and it slides to the players choosing. It then targets a creature which is ally made enemy due to Decree of Khirad. Since the creature needs to be an enemy for the MBA it cannot be itself. If the specifics of the power beat the general rules then yes it could target itself.

All 106 says is, literally, a "Creature is a Creature", which is super-helpful, and "If an attack targets a creature that attack does not distinguish between Friend and Foe."

So if the target is "A Creature" you can target yourself, because you're a creature and you're not distinguishing between Friend or Foe.

 

[Pbartender]

You might look to the Lure of Minauros Warlock power as another example:

Hit: 1d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the primary target takes a free action to make a melee basic attack against itself or an adjacent creature.​

...and from the secondary attack...

Hit: One-half of 1d10 + Charisma modifier psychic damage, and the secondary target takes a free action to make a melee basic attack against a creature of your choice (including itself ) that is adjacent to it; the secondary target’s attack deals half damage.​

There, they make it very explicit that the target can attack itself with the basic attack.

The Wizard attack power Taunting Phantoms is another:

Hit: The target makes a melee basic attack roll against a creature of your choice, including itself.​

This would tend to imply that "creature" does not normally include the attacker, unless otherwise specified.

 

[Shikami]

Very incorrect. You need to understand the semantics here, and you are using defined terms incorrectly. I am also, since I think I need to go beyond these defined terms, will use all the rules that will help with resolution of this and other powers. If I note a page this is all awithin the Rules Compendium.

What 106 says is this. A target is one of the three things. A creature, enemy, or ally, UNLESS specifically written in the power. If it is a creature it can be an enemy or ally. It [the power] also does not have the distinct notation of "each creature" which means indiscriminately: there is no distinction between friend or foe. This is to define situations with close and area powers though. As in "Target: Each enemy in blast." If it said "Target: Each creature in blast." The warlock can slide and make his allies fight too, even if they do not want to (This is noted later). It says against a creature.

Now, since a creature is a creature of any sort, whether enemy or ally. We have to look at the defined terms of enemy or ally and how this will affect the target of this melee basic attack granted by the power (106). The power says: The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action against a creature of your choice. Note, these free actions are to be treated as Other Triggered Effect (194-197).

The target of the Hit effect is the origin square for the MBA which is range melee noted by the melee basic attack. This is range melee 1 unless noted otherwise, not melee 0. Even if the MBA can be melee 0 the target (creature, enemy or ally) is sharing the attacker's space, it is not a personal range (100-101, 239, and 268-269).

Any creature even if it is enemy or ally can be targeted by this range melee 1 MBA in the adjacent squares of the origin square . If target of MBA is an ally, and the creature defined term is used for the target of the attack, the ally (which is considered enemy by the hero, the warlock would not want to attack what is considered its own ally for that is punitive) cannot disregard the power's affect.

Just 106 prevented the target for targeting itself as a creature because it is not defined. To note, it is also in the literature of the power's resolution-target/against/creature. It is even in the Flavored Text. However, I think you perhaps would rather argue this differently. Like how some comprehend the warlord's power Commander's Strike. Giving the ability of an unconscious ally an ability to attack. This cannot happen since it is not a legitimate target as per rules.

To target the target's self you have to have either a specific, or it will say personal but that is actually a distinction for range. And in this is the Uber caveat. The MBA is melee 1 to the adjacent squares of the origin square, not origin square-again cannot target unless specific is given.

However, the ultimate rule: it is your game. But I am a purist. So, therefore this power cannot cause the target of the Hit effect to target itself as a creature using what is given by the power, defined terms, and mechanics.

 

[Shikami]

Pbartender, thank you for perfect examples of my explanation of defined terms and specific beats general.

 

[webrunner]

You know, I thought you couldn't melee-basic-attack yourself, but I dont see any rule to the contrary.

does melee range include range "0"?

 

[DracoSuave]

Very incorrect. You need to understand the semantics here, and you are using defined terms incorrectly. I am also, since I think I need to go beyond these defined terms, will use all the rules that will help with resolution of this and other powers. If I note a page this is all awithin the Rules Compendium.

What 106 says is this. A target is one of the three things. A creature, enemy, or ally, UNLESS specifically written in the power. If it is a creature it can be an enemy or ally. It [the power] also does not have the distinct notation of "each creature" which means indiscriminately: there is no distinction between friend or foe. This is to define situations with close and area powers though. As in "Target: Each enemy in blast." If it said "Target: Each creature in blast." The warlock can slide and make his allies fight too, even if they do not want to (This is noted later). It says against a creature.

Time to deconstruct this.

The different distinctions for targets are:

Creature, You, Enemy, Ally. You are a creature. if you were not a creature, nothing could ever target you. The definition of what creature means in targetting is pretty clear: "A creature of any sort." You certainly qualify.

Now, since a creature is a creature of any sort, whether enemy or ally. We have to look at the defined terms of enemy or ally and how this will affect the target of this melee basic attack granted by the power (106). The power says: The target makes a melee basic attack as a free action against a creature of your choice. Note, these free actions are to be treated as Other Triggered Effect (194-197).

You've already discounted the fact that you yourself are 'a creature of any sort' and therefore this cannot exclude you from the effect. Just because it goes on to say that it does not discriminate against ally/enemy status does not logically mean it must therefore exclude you.

General:
Creature means a creature of any sort.

For it not to include you, a specific exception must be presented. Otherwise there IS no exception, and therefore you are not excepted.

The target of the Hit effect is the origin square for the MBA which is range melee noted by the melee basic attack. This is range melee 1 unless noted otherwise, not melee 0. Even if the MBA can be melee 0 the target (creature, enemy or ally) is sharing the attacker's space, it is not a personal range (100-101, 239, and 268-269).

Irrelevant. All melee cares about is if the target is in range. Melee 2 does not exclude targets adjacent to you. You can target yourself with a melee attack because you are within the range of the power from the origin square. 0 <= 1, 2, touch, or weapon for all values of these things.

Any creature even if it is enemy or ally can be targeted by this range melee 1 MBA in the adjacent squares of the origin square . If target of MBA is an ally, and the creature defined term is used for the target of the attack, the ally (which is considered enemy by the hero, the warlock would not want to attack what is considered its own ally for that is punitive) cannot disregard the power's affect.

This is true. If the power does not target allies explicitly, an ally cannot choose to ignore it.

[quite[Just 106 prevented the target for targeting itself as a creature because it is not defined.[/quote]

Wrong.

I can be targetted by my ally's powers that target creatures. Therefore I must be a creature of any sort. My powers that target creatures target creatures of any sort, therefore they must target me.

You've placed an artificial constraint on enemy and ally that a creature must be one of those two. The definition of creature in the context of targetting makes absolutely no distinction whatsoever. It says, verbatim: A creature of any sort.

You are a creature, ergo, you are a creature.

If creature did not target you, then you must not be a creature of any sort. Ergo other people's powers cannot target you. As they are also benefitting from this, you cannot target other people.

I strongly advise not using rules interpretations that cause the entire ruleset to break down and stop working completely.

To note, it is also in the literature of the power's resolution-target/against/creature. It is even in the Flavored Text. However, I think you perhaps would rather argue this differently. Like how some comprehend the warlord's power Commander's Strike. Giving the ability of an unconscious ally an ability to attack. This cannot happen since it is not a legitimate target as per rules.

While I won't say flavor text is irrelevant, it is definately not constraining. Using flavor text as an excuse to contrain abilities is a bit farfetched... nor do the rules encourage you to do so.... they do encourage some 'outside the box' thinking.

Not to mention, every power's flavor text would be retarded levels of awful and long if they included every contigency. Oh god, imagine what an augmentable power would look like.

To target the target's self you have to have either a specific, or it will say personal but that is actually a distinction for range. And in this is the Uber caveat. The MBA is melee 1 to the adjacent squares of the origin square, not origin square-again cannot target unless specific is given.

You do not need a specific exception because the general rules allow you to do this.

1) Melee can target yourself. You are in range, and nothing says you cannot.
2) Creature includes yourself. Creature means a creature of any sort, and nothing says you are not.

Both have the same logical structure... you have one thing saying that the situation in question would qualify, and it is followed by the complete absence of anything saying that it could not qualify.

To sum up why your argument is wrong: You have yet to present a single exception to the general rules I've noted above that excepts them and makes them not apply to yourself.

No specific means no specific beats general.

However, the ultimate rule: it is your game. But I am a purist. So, therefore this power cannot cause the target of the Hit effect to target itself as a creature using what is given by the power, defined terms, and mechanics.

It is your game. But as a purist, you cannot be adding in inferring clauses the rules do not actually say.

 

[Skottie]

I realise that the subject of this discussion is more widespread than Decree of Khirad alone, and I've since then found similar powers (Unhinging Strike and subsequent powers) and discussions about this subject. I've also noted a lack of consensus about this issue. Now, to add to the debate:

PBartender: the example you've used isn't very strong. To me, it reads more like a clarification than an exception to a rule, just like e.g. "the target is dazed and grants combat advantage". A better example would be Consuming Psychosis, which has an effect that reads:

Effect: When the target takes ongoing psychic damage from this attack, it makes a melee basic attack against a random creature as a free action. If it cannot make a melee attack against any creature, it targets itself with a melee basic attack.

Still, this is inductive reasoning, which does not necessarily hold. The deductive reasoning (a creature is a creature, range 0 is within range 1, therefore the target can attack itself) however, does always hold.