Does this bug anyone else?

[Utrecht]

Nope, I mean million but that is just for my division of my company. I can't speak for our company or software as a whole - which would be in the 10s of Billions

 

[smetzger]

Re: How does open gaming lisence fit into this?

It is my understanding that certain materials in every d20 book are public domain, that is, the author makes no claim to copyright ownership. Typically, these are the "crunchy bits" spells, feats, classes, etc. This is delineated at the beginning of the manuscript.

Not entirely true. Most 3rd party d20 books have OGC in them which are owned and copyrighted. This material can be redistributed under the OGL.

If you download the PDF (say from Kazaa) and then keep only the "open" material (and even perhaps distribute this material to your group along with the Liscence) have you violated any laws? Would it be legal to download PDFs, create your own campaing book of crunchy bits, and then send this (along with the liscence) to whomever you chose?

By downloading the whole PDF which includes OGC and PI material you have received illegally obtained material, thus there would be theft involved.

Now, _if_ someone took the OGC material out of said product and then only distributed this material in a manner complying with the OGL, then that would be kosher.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

This is a bit off track but most software companies (at least the mid-sized to large ones) have as much as a 30% margin built into the price of their software to contend with the loss of sales from software piracey.

Because of this I have heard people say they are willing top pirate software as opposed to other products just because they are already getting bent over in the price area.

So that is at least one difference between 10 books and a $500 piece of software.

But if you support $500 piracy, why don't you support 10 books piracy?

 

[Buttercup]

Thanks, smetzger, for correcting me. I didn't think about the 'receiving stolen goods' angle.

 

[Janos Audron]

The oft-repeated "stay out of other people's business" defense is, of course, nonsense. We live together in a society, of which we are all members. When other members of the society are doing something which negatively affects us in the aggregate, it is our responsibility to get into each others' business, most especially in situations where the law of the land cannot realistically see the crime being committed or do anything about it.

That's a fair argument. So, what course of action do you suggest? How far should you go with this? How far *would* you go with this?

 

[jmucchiello]

Re: How does open gaming lisence fit into this?

It is my understanding that certain materials in every d20 book are public domain, that is, the author makes no claim to copyright ownership. Typically, these are the "crunchy bits" spells, feats, classes, etc. This is delineated at the beginning of the manuscript.

Nothing in a d20 book is "public domain". Not one bit. Nada. What is delineated is material that obeys the Open Gaming License.

If you download the PDF (say from Kazaa) and then keep only the "open" material (and even perhaps distribute this material to your group along with the Liscence) have you violated any laws? Would it be legal to download PDFs, create your own campaing book of crunchy bits, and then send this (along with the liscence) to whomever you chose?

Some of it is licensed under the Open Gaming License. That material can be copied out and distributed along with your own update of the OGL (by following the legal directions in the OGL included with it). If this is all you are doing, (and you are updating the license), go to town. But if you are just passing the PDF along untouched, you are "pirating" the product.

I produce PDFs (see my sig). And even though they say "The text in this document is 100% OGC," you still cannot just copy my PDF legally. There is Product Identity (protected material defined in the OGL) and logos in my PDF that you do not have the rights to copy.

 

[Clefton Twain]

It was my understanding that, yeah, you can use, reproduce, and pass along anything that is open gaming content. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to get that information for free, right?

I thought it was a lot like open source code for software. Everyone always assumes that, since it's open-source, you can get it for free. Wrong. Most of the time you have to pay the company to provide you the source code.

At least, that was my understanding. I'm just trying to get a firm grip on it.

--CT

 

[jmucchiello]

This is a bit off track but most software companies (at least the mid-sized to large ones) have as much as a 30% margin built into the price of their software to contend with the loss of sales from software piracey.

Because of this I have heard people say they are willing top pirate software as opposed to other products just because they are already getting bent over in the price area.

Where are you going with this? Because software companies have to overcharge (by 30% than they want to) due to piracy, that piracy is okay there? Every business adds some percentage to the cost of their products to make up for losses (whether they be theft, damage, loss, etc). Software companies just use a higher percentage because they know if will be pirated. But just because they anticipate said piracy does nothing to justify doing it.

(I'm shocked this thread is still here. Usually they smack them down because of the heat the arguments usually raise.)

 

[jmucchiello]

It was my understanding that, yeah, you can use, reproduce, and pass along anything that is open gaming content. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to get that information for free, right?

A musician sits on a street corner playing some music. You walk by. Do you have to tip him? No. But, it sounds like you are the type who would. Bless you and everyone like you. But no, there is nothing in the license that says you have to pay for OGC.

There are discussions about this all the time on the opengamingfoundation.org mailing lists. Every time someone says "let's collect all the OGC and put it somewhere" it is pointed out that while such an endeavor is technically legal, the result would be less OGC being released by producers in order to protect their own sales. I have been releasing 100% OGC up until now. If such a website came into existence I'd have to rethink how much OGC I release.

And most source to open source software is freely available from the same locations you can get the binaries. The question is, can you figure out how to compile it?

 

[smetzger]

It was my understanding that, yeah, you can use, reproduce, and pass along anything that is open gaming content. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to get that information for free, right?

If its OGC material the _only_ restriction for redistribution is following the OGL. You don't have to pay the copyright holder anything and you don't have to charge for it.