Does True Seeing see some who is using Hide in Plain Sight

[moritheil]

You are correct that one can Hide by creating a distraction. But, he still has to be in concealment or cover in order to hide. Create all of the distractions he wants, he cannot hide without cover or concealment.

I'm with you when you say "hide" as in "begin to hide." However, I'm not so sure that RAW, one must stay behind cover/concealment the entire time one is hiding once one has already successfully hidden. Can you elaborate?

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm with you when you say "hide" as in "begin to hide." However, I'm not so sure that RAW, one must stay behind cover/concealment the entire time one is hiding once one has already successfully hidden. Can you elaborate?

Sure.

Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you.

If they even have a chance to see you, they get a Spot check.

You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check.

So, if anyone might see the character and he has cover or concealment, he can attempt a hide check.

Without both of these conditions being true, he cannot even attempt a hide check.

No hide check = no hiding.

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

And I think this sentence clinches it. RAW is explicit that even casual observations negate a chance to hide.


So in the case of True Seeing vs. HiPS (Su), the character has no concealment and hence cannot hide, even though he was hiding previously.

No different than hiding in Fog Cloud concealment and the concealment vanishes due to the spell expiring.

No concealment or cover = no hide.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place, of some kind.

Over and over again, RAW indicates that cover or concealment is necessary to hide.

 

[Falling Icicle]

IMO, True Seeing would see through a Shadowdancer's Hide in Plain Sight ability, since it is a supernatural ability. Like invisibility, it requires magic to work. Yes, a hide check is made, but without that magical ability to hide out in the open, that hide check could not have been made. True Seeing thus renders the Shadowdancer's hide check inapplicable to the caster.

True Seeing would not help against a Ranger's HiPS, however, since it is an extraordinary ability.

 

[Nifft]

For my games, I rule that:

1/ True seeing doesn't apply to Hide checks (though it may remove magical modifiers to a Hide check); and

2/ Hide in Plain Sight doesn't modify a Hide check, rather it allows one to be made; and thus

3/ Even if HiPS is (Su), it's not affected by true seeing.

- - -

HiPS isn't an Illusion effect, nor is it negated by Darkvision or a Devil's supernatural ability to see in darkness (either of which would allow you to observe someone who's "merely" in a shadow).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

Over and over again, RAW indicates that cover or concealment is necessary to hide.

In general, sure, but the specific text of HiPS trumps the general skill description.

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)

A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.

Not "a shadow that grants concealment". Just "some sort of shadow". Note that this is not foiled by Darkvision, nor by a Devil's ability to see in darkness of any kind.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Sejs]

For my games, I rule that:

1/ True seeing doesn't apply to Hide checks (though it may remove magical modifiers to a Hide check); and

2/ Hide in Plain Sight doesn't modify a Hide check, rather it allows one to be made; and thus

3/ Even if HiPS is (Su), it's not affected by true seeing.

- - -

HiPS isn't an Illusion effect, nor is it negated by Darkvision or a Devil's supernatural ability to see in darkness (either of which would allow you to observe someone who's "merely" in a shadow).

Cheers, -- N

That is the exact same way I rule it, also.

 

[KarinsDad]

Not "a shadow that grants concealment". Just "some sort of shadow". Note that this is not foiled by Darkvision, nor by a Devil's ability to see in darkness of any kind.

I could buy into your position for when HiPS is not a Su ability.

True Seeing "does not help the viewer spot creatures who are simply hiding", but I do not consider HiPS (Su) to be "simply hiding", rather an advanced form of magical hiding. YMMV.


The problem with the Su abilities is that many of them do not state how they work. Just that they work. They do not specify that they are illusions or transmutations or whatever. So, adjudications can go in many directions because the game mechanics are not really spelled out.

In this case though, True Seeing is supposed to punch through magic and not punch through mundane. So, it is easier to consistently adjudicate with: Is it magic? True Seeing sees through it. Is it mundane? True Seeing does not see through it. IMO.

 

[hong]

I don't have a problem with true seeing negating hide in plain sight. However, the hiding person can still make a normal Hide check to remain concealed, if they satisfy the usual requirements for the check. In effect, what true seeing does is remove the special condition that you can hide while being observed and without cover/concealment.

 

[Nifft]

True Seeing "does not help the viewer spot creatures who are simply hiding", but I do not consider HiPS (Su) to be "simply hiding", rather an advanced form of magical hiding. YMMV.

Well, let's look at what True Seeing does help with:

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

• Normal & magical darkness
• Any secret door hidden by magic
• Blur and displacement effects
• Invisible
• See through illusions
• See true form of polymorphed, etc.
• Ethereal

So... the only blanket statement about the supernatural I can find is the thing about secret doors. I guess a mimic shadowdancer in the shape of a door would be screwed.

What about a lowly obscuring mist spell? It's certainly supernatural, but true seeing is impotent against it. Your simple criteria are insufficient.

The problem with the Su abilities is that many of them do not state how they work. Just that they work. They do not specify that they are illusions or transmutations or whatever. So, adjudications can go in many directions because the game mechanics are not really spelled out.

Seems spelled out to me.

HiPS: If there's a shadow within 10 ft. then you can use Hide even if you would normally be unable to do so due to lack of concealment.

True Seeing: Penetrate a variety of conditions, including concealment granted by shadows, but does not foil Hide checks.

If HiPS relied on concealment (or illusion), true seeing would foil it.

In this case though, True Seeing is supposed to punch through magic and not punch through mundane. So, it is easier to consistently adjudicate with: Is it magic? True Seeing sees through it. Is it mundane? True Seeing does not see through it. IMO.

That's not what the rules in my books say.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nifft]

I don't have a problem with true seeing negating hide in plain sight. However, the hiding person can still make a normal Hide check to remain concealed, if they satisfy the usual requirements for the check. In effect, what true seeing does is remove the special condition that you can hide while being observed and without cover/concealment.

Interesting. My reading is pretty much the opposite.

True seeing removes certain kinds of concealment (including mundane and magical darkness, invisibility, and any Illusion spells), while HiPS allows you to Hide even if you totally lack concealment -- thus side-stepping the benefit of true seeing.

So true seeing foils the mundane rogue's attempt to Hide using the concealment normally provided by mundane shadows, but does not foil the supernatural shadowdancer's attempt to HiPS even if he's only within 10 ft. of a shadow.

Cheers, -- N