Does True Seeing see some who is using Hide in Plain Sight

[Nifft]

I'm going to snip stuff that's true and/or irrelevant.

The character using HiPS is not actually in the shadow.

... which is why it works. The guy with true seeing sees right through the shadow.

As magic, there should be a reasonable magical counter to it.

Glitterdust, Daylight, Faerie Fire, Scent, Blindsight, Blindsense, Tremmorsense, area effect spells.

True Seeing is basically designed to see through illusion and transmutation magic. HiPS is magical.

If HiPS is not illusion magic, then what kind of magic is it? It doesn't state. Since it deals with hiding and shadows, that basically shouts the Illusion school, but we are not explicitly told.

Now you're just being silly. Which Spell Focus feat will increase the DC of a dragon's breath weapon? Evocation, or maybe Conjuration?

Can my Lich use his Counterspell to stop that pesky Cleric from Turning Undead? Turn is Su, right?

Spells are a strict sub-set of the supernatural. Not all magical effects have a school. I know you already know this!

I agree with you that my interpretation is not explicitly stated in the True Seeing spell or the HiPS description.

Hey, that sounds like agreement!

The interpretation is "HiPS is magical hiding and True Seeing is limited to not viewing simple hiding".

I think you're reading too much into the word "simply".

I don't think a simple Su deception ability should defeat one of the most potent divination spells in the game.

But it's not. It's a hefty investment in Hide skill that pays off here, not the HiPS ability itself. HiPS is worthless without a good Hide bonus.

Given all the spells which render the Hide skill worthless under normal conditions (from invisibility to scrying, depending on why you wanted to Hide in the first place), I think it's more than fair that Hide gets its chance in the spotlight... so to speak.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Thanee]

Duh, what's the one you don't get when polymorphing any more but really should?

Well, when polymorphing you do not get all (Ex) abilities, only extraordinary special attacks, so this was what you were thinking most likely... you don't get low-light or blindsense or anything.

And yes, I agree that you should (and in my games you do).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

To me the Assassin uses a magical ability to either make himself appear as an extension of the shadow he must be near or magically bends that shadow to conceal himself. Hide in Plain sight does not require him to move into actual concealment. Thus Tree Seeing defeats this. For the Ranger it is a nonmagical method of having a ghillie suit or other ability so that while you see him you don't recognise him as a person, hence Tree Seeing doesn't work.

I would say that that could actually work quite well!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Fangorn Athran]

I think you're reading too much into the word "simply".

And I think you are reading to much into the literal definitions of the rules. You need to look at HiPs in the spirit of it. The Shadowdancer is one who bends shadows to there will using it to conceal themselves specifically for Hide in plain sight. While it does not specifically state that the Shadowdancer uses the shadows to hide in plains sight they are required to be within 10 ft of a shadow. Now if the shadowdancer didn't use this shadow to hide themseleves then there would be no need to be near the shadow, but since they do need it it can be infered that the Shadowdancers needs it to manipulate it to hide with it. There True Seeing can apply as it is using shadow to hide. Now yes in a literal, strict adherence to the exact definition of the rules for True Seeing could be applied in a manner to counter this argument, but these rules are open for interpretation to any DM as was the intention by Wizards of the Coast, they are not set in stone such that any interpretation changes another. Most supernatural abilities lack clear definite rules, Hide in Plain sight for example doesn't not say why the shadows within 10 ft are required yet an interpretation such as mine is a valid application to the ruling to keep with the spirit of both True Seeing and Hide in Plain sight. These rules can't just be defined by the books but by logical function. In Hips case one cannot not simply disappear from casual observance with out some sort of magic, either through invisibility or manipulating shadows to conceal oneself like Hide in Plain Sight.

 

[Bagpuss]

In Hips case one cannot not simply disappear from casual observance with out some sort of magic, either through invisibility or manipulating shadows to conceal oneself like Hide in Plain Sight.

The ranger begs to differ.

 

[Nifft]

And I think you are reading to much into the literal definitions of the rules. You need to look at HiPs in the spirit of it.

Nope, that's what the Rules forum is about. Figuring out what the rules actually say. If you don't like what the rules say, go to House Rules and let your spirit be free! Here, we like rules.

In Hips case one cannot not simply disappear from casual observance with out some sort of magic, either through invisibility or manipulating shadows to conceal oneself like Hide in Plain Sight.

So. In your world, do Darkvision or a Devil's racial ability to see through darkness negate HiPS?

-- N

 

[Fangorn Athran]

The ranger begs to differ.

I wasn't talking about rangers, rangers have Hide in plain sight (ex) which is different than hide in plain sight(su) I agree with there early post on the thread regarding the differences between the Ranger ability and the Shadowdancer Assasin ability.

 

[Fangorn Athran]

So. In your world, do Darkvision or a Devil's racial ability to see through darkness negate HiPS? -- N

No, the manipulated shadow would, IMO, be an illusion, as that is what the basis of the shadowdancer class seems to be, so True seeing would see through the illusion, darkvision would not. Yet I see little point in saying this as you will just apply some other thing contradiction in the rules which are numerous to begin with; the rules need to be viewed through the spirit in which they were intended, Hide in plain sight(su) seems to be intended for shadowdancer use of maipulating shadows, to create illusions and such. That is at least how I try to look at rules during my gaming sessions.

another thing i thought of, If say the person hiding in plain sight were to move into a valid hide area I would view that as hidden by normal means, but they have to reach the normal conditions of a normal hide for it to work, i.e. move behind cover or non manipulated shadow.

 

[Nifft]

That is at least how I try to look at rules during my gaming sessions.

If you agree that your gaming sessions do not agree with the literal rules-as-written, then we're pretty much done here. In this forum, I'm only interested in figuring out what the rules say -- there are several other places to discuss what they should say.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Fangorn Athran]

All I am trying to say is that in this instance rules for supernatural abilities aren't as clearly defined in regards to how spells, feats,etc affect them and so to argue something such as this where both sides aren't equally documented through the rules there is little to be gained through such discussion if pure definitions of rules is applied.
Supernatural abilities do not clearly say if they are affected by spells and feats and if so how. Because of this one needs to apply things such as the spirit of which it was intended. Otherwise you aren't arguing anything as there is nothing to connect them, things like logic, intent, and commonsense need to be applied before anything can be accomplished. I am not saying you are wrong I am just saying that there is more this particular discussion than simple rules definitions.