D&D 5E Does "Unarmoured Defense" work with Druids who are shapechanged?

[James Gasik]

How is that different? You are using the text of the rules to say that something doesn't fly.

Huh? Defense Fighting Style says: "While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC." So what's the question about whether or not it can be used with Wildshape? Get armor on your Druid, you can use it. No armor, you can't.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Huh? Defense Fighting Style says: "While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC." So what's the question about whether or not it can be used with Wildshape? Get armor on your Druid, you can use it. No armor, you can't.

You're (presumably) wearing armor before you wildshape. Why does it stop applying when you wild shape? Isn't that unfairly taking away the player's AC bonus acquired through taking a level in a different class?

I just don't see how this isn't exactly the same situation. There's a feature. The player meets the requirements before wild shape. You take it away because, while shifted, the armor "isn't there." How is this not a "sorry, you can't do this because it doesn't make sense to me" situation? It doesn't make sense that armor should apply while you're in wild shape, so it doesn't apply--even though you really are wearing armor, it just "merges" into your form.

Further, isn't "if you get some barding, you can do that thing" exactly "you need to invest some resources into making it work"? Because that's literally what's happening here. You're telling the player they need to spend resources (money, in this case) to acquire a form of armor that works with their wild shape feature. How is this even the tiniest bit different from what I described?

 

[James Gasik]

You're (presumably) wearing armor before you wildshape. Why does it stop applying when you wild shape? Isn't that unfairly taking away the player's AC bonus acquired through taking a level in a different class?

I just don't see how this isn't exactly the same situation. There's a feature. The player meets the requirements before wild shape. You take it away because, while shifted, the armor "isn't there." How is this not a "sorry, you can't do this because it doesn't make sense to me" situation? It doesn't make sense that armor should apply while you're in wild shape, so it doesn't apply--even though you really are wearing armor, it just "merges" into your form.

Further, isn't "if you get some barding, you can do that thing" exactly "you need to invest some resources into making it work"? Because that's literally what's happening here. You're telling the player they need to spend resources (money, in this case) to acquire a form of armor that works with their wild shape feature. How is this even the tiniest bit different from what I described?

Oh I see what you're saying. Well it comes down to how the DM rules on the following bullet point of Wild Shape:

• You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size. Your equipment doesn't change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can't wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.

So here we have the problem that your Wild Shape form simply might not be able to wear a piece of equipment due to it's shape or size, and your equipment doesn't change shape. Thus it might either fall to the ground or merge into your form, at which point it no longer functions as normal.

So the difference is between the following two statements:

Unarmored Defense: You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

Defense Fighting Style: the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size.

The former really does come down to "does it make sense to me or not" as a ruling. The latter, however, runs into the fact that because your equipment doesn't change size or shape to match the new form, armor worn by a medium-size Druid is not going to fit on their body if they become, say, a mammoth.

And because Defense Fighting Style's wording specifies "wearing" armor and Wild Shape specifies that armor melded into your form isn't worn.

 

[ECMO3]

Page 14 of the PH does offer some guidance:

The direction to “pick one to use” strongly suggests mutual exclusivity rather than any ability to add them together. But the point at which you‘d have to pick… Can you pick the barbarian or monk method while wildshaped? Or does being wildshaped imply you have chosen the wildshape method?

I think it would work, but you would use the statistics of the shifted form, not your PC stats - here is the relevant text:

• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

So if you were a Barbarian-Druid and shapeshifted to a Brown Bear your AC would be 13 (0 Dex, 16 Con).

A Monk-Druid would use the 0 dexterity and whatever the PCs wisdom was. You would also be able to use martial arts, FOB, patient defense, step of the wind, stunning strike, any of your Monk subclass abilities that are not casting spells,

Also because of this you can't cast spells, but you can use spell-like abilities from your race. So for example Eladrin can do Fey Step, but they could not use the similar Misty Step spell. Paladins can use divine smite.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think it would work, but you would use the statistics of the shifted form, not your PC stats - here is the relevant text:

• You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

So if you were a Barbarian-Druid and shapeshifted to a Brown Bear your AC would be 13 (0 Dex, 16 Con).

A Monk-Druid would use the 0 dexterity and whatever the PCs wisdom was. You would also be able to use martial arts, FOB, patient defense, step of the wind, stunning strike, any of your Monk subclass abilities that are not casting spells,

Also because of this you can't cast spells, but you can use spell-like abilities from your race. So for example Eladrin can do Fey Step, but they could not use the similar Misty Step spell. Paladins can use divine smite.

Animal natural weapons are not unarmed strikes, nor monk weapons.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Oh I see what you're saying. Well it comes down to how the DM rules on the following bullet point of Wild Shape:

• You choose whether your equipment falls to the ground in your space, merges into your new form, or is worn by it. Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size. Your equipment doesn't change size or shape to match the new form, and any equipment that the new form can't wear must either fall to the ground or merge with it. Equipment that merges with the form has no effect until you leave the form.

So here we have the problem that your Wild Shape form simply might not be able to wear a piece of equipment due to it's shape or size, and your equipment doesn't change shape. Thus it might either fall to the ground or merge into your form, at which point it no longer functions as normal.

So the difference is between the following two statements:

Unarmored Defense: You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so.

Defense Fighting Style: the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size.

The former really does come down to "does it make sense to me or not" as a ruling. The latter, however, runs into the fact that because your equipment doesn't change size or shape to match the new form, armor worn by a medium-size Druid is not going to fit on their body if they become, say, a mammoth.

And because Defense Fighting Style's wording specifies "wearing" armor and Wild Shape specifies that armor melded into your form isn't worn.

I still don't see how any of that isn't the DM deciding what makes sense and what doesn't. Wild shape even explicitly says that in the text, it doesn't specify what does and doesn't qualify. You just quoted it yourself: "Worn equipment functions as normal, but the DM decides whether it is practical for the new form to wear a piece of equipment, based on the creature's shape and size."

That is a DM deciding what makes sense and what doesn't--what is "practical" or not. That the rules explicitly tell the DM to do so does not mean it is somehow not a DM ruling against something purely on the basis of what they think makes sense.

And, for the record, Mearls said in response to the question "druid multiclass monk, unarmored defense apply to wildshape? ex wolf 13 nat AC +its dex mod and druid wis mod?" with the statement, "not in my opinion - natural armor counts as armor. use higher of base 10 + mods or form AC"

So I would literally be running it exactly RAW to allow the Druid to choose either the form's AC or the Unarmored Defense benefit, which is what I was saying before.

Edit: In fact, this has actually been added to the official Sage Advice Compendium document. Natural armor is one of the alternative AC calculations it lists:

Here are some ways to calculate your base AC:

• Unarmored: 10 + your Dexterity modifier.
• Armored: Use the AC entry for the armor you’re wearing (see PH, 145). For example, in leather armor, you calculate your AC as 11 + your Dexterity modifier, and in chainmail, your AC is simply 16.
• Unarmored Defense (Barbarian): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Constitution modifier.
• Unarmored Defense (Monk): 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom modifier.
• Draconic Resilience (Sorcerer): 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
• Natural Armor: 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your natural armor bonus. This is a calculation method typically used only by monsters and NPCs, although it is also relevant to a druid or another character who assumes a form that has natural armor.

Being a Monk/Druid does not entitle you to merge multiple AC calculations. However, I would be quite happy to work with a player so that they can build toward a Monk/Druid that can add 10+Dex mod+Wis mod+natural armor. Perhaps they can spend a feat if they wish to have things done short, simple, and sweet--though the feat would do far more than just allowing these things to play nicely together in 5e, since feats are supposed to be chunky. (E.g., allowing half of Monk levels, rounded up, to count as Druid levels for spellcasting; allowing half of Druid levels, rounded up, to count as Monk levels for Ki points and martial arts dice; and allowing Ki points to be exchanged for Wild Shape charges and vice-versa.) Or, they could spend money on training and/or magic items to achieve similar effects, allowing them to spend their feats elsewhere (though such magic items might need to be custom-made or reclaimed from where they were lost). Or they could do it through roleplay and checks, building up their new discipline over time through effort rather than through quick expenditure.

I'm cool with all of those things, because they all represent some kind of journey to a destination, using the rules themselves to express the story, and using the story to express the rules.

Edit 2, etheric boogaloo: That said, it would seem my "for the simplicity" thing is actually against the intent here, and you are supposed to be using the creature's own Dex and the Monk/Druid's Wis. So, having discovered my error there, I guess that's what we do, even if it makes things rather tedious to calculate at the table unless the player is well-prepared. (In my experience, that's a binary thing--either you have one of the Crazy Prepared players who knows all this stuff back-to-front with notes and all, or you have the far more common "uh, um, let me, uh, check the book? what page is wolf on? one sec...")

 

[James Gasik]

Did I ever say that you could have both natural armor and Unarmored Defense? If I gave that impression, that wasn't intended. I merely expressed my thoughts that you could use it in Wild Shape, not that you could somehow stack multiple AC calculations.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Did I ever say that you could have both natural armor and Unarmored Defense? If I gave that impression, that wasn't intended. I merely expressed my thoughts that you could use it in Wild Shape, not that you could somehow stack multiple AC calculations.

Ah. Well then I've been tilting at windmills it would seem. I had thought it quite clear from what you were saying that the Druid/Monk would get Unarmored Defense and natural armor simultaneously. (Which, to be clear, I have no problem with the Druid/Monk acquiring such an ability, after putting in appropriate effort or spending appropriate resources, as noted.)

If all you meant was "you get your choice"--since that's what the rules officially say--then sure. As I said, I have read up and corrected myself, you do use the form's natural Dexterity modifier. (Though, having looked it up, about one in six Beasts with a natural armor bonus to AC actually have a negative Dex mod, and 23 more for a total of 34--more than half of all such Beasts--have non-positive Dex mod. Given I'd expect at least a 14 Dex on a Druid/Monk, using your own Dex is usually a perk, not a penalty!)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Things that are good with monk unarmoured defence are actually quite small and frail, like flying snakes.

Giant Apes and Huge Giant Crabs are pretty good for a barbarian multiclass though.

 

[James Gasik]

Ah. Well then I've been tilting at windmills it would seem. I had thought it quite clear from what you were saying that the Druid/Monk would get Unarmored Defense and natural armor simultaneously. (Which, to be clear, I have no problem with the Druid/Monk acquiring such an ability, after putting in appropriate effort or spending appropriate resources, as noted.)

If all you meant was "you get your choice"--since that's what the rules officially say--then sure. As I said, I have read up and corrected myself, you do use the form's natural Dexterity modifier. (Though, having looked it up, about one in six Beasts with a natural armor bonus to AC actually have a negative Dex mod, and 23 more for a total of 34--more than half of all such Beasts--have non-positive Dex mod. Given I'd expect at least a 14 Dex on a Druid/Monk, using your own Dex is usually a perk, not a penalty!)

Early in the thread, someone said they felt that allowing the Druid to use Unarmored Defense to determine their Wild Shape AC would make them "too good", which was the thing I was pushing back against, as well as other early arguments about not being able to use the class feature in a non-humanoid form. Should have specified that right away, I'm probably following more arguments spirited debates on Enworld at the moment than is healthy, so I'm a bit distracted.