D&D 5E (2024) Does WotC view the Monk class as overtuned from their perspective?

[Neonchameleon]

So what you're saying is that at Level 2 the fighter does almost the same damage as the monk while having about triple the survivability? Seems balanced!

Where does "triple the survivability" come from?

 

[James Gasik]

Where does "triple the survivability" come from?

I don't know about triple, but you can have the same AC without needing a pair of 16's to get there, you have probably 2 more hit points, and Second Wind has the potential to be a full heal at this level (and probably is, since nobody is going to wait until they are at 1 hit point to use it).

And yes, I'm aware two weapons isn't the best fighting style, but I was just responding to the statement that the Monk deals more damage than the Fighter at level 1. I'm not a maths guy, but it seems like Greatsword + Great Weapon Fighting isn't too far behind here (if you always rerolled anything below 3 the average would be 1 point less, but I have no idea how to map out "reroll a damage die of 1 or 2 but if it's 1 or 2 again keep it", lol) and you'd probably be better off taking another fighting style anyways.

Or you could take Archery with Heavy Crossbow at level 1 for 8.5 average damage and a potential +10% chance to hit* and stay safely out of melee- the Fighter has options while the Monk really doesn't.

*Your DM might actually remember soft cover is a thing, after all.

Now, directly comparing Monk to Fighter isn't really fair, the two classes are about different things. But the Fighter does get a much better deal at level 1 than the Monk, and is better equipped to deal with the rigors of melee combat.

For all the talk of Monk "skirmishing", you don't even start with the ability to disengage freely, you have less hit points, no defensive ability to speak of (other than saving 50 gp on armor), and when you do get defensive abilities, they are harshly limited and run on the same budget as some of your better offensive abilities.

Now it does get better than this eventually, but as the OP asks, I'm not sure how anyone can call the Monk "overtuned". It's a class that doesn't really excel at any one thing, that can feel resource-starved at low levels, and has a lot of situational abilities that are pretty neat when they come up, but don't always do so.

 

[Muh]

And yes, I'm aware two weapons isn't the best fighting style, but I was just responding to the statement that the Monk deals more damage than the Fighter at level 1. I'm not a maths guy, but it seems like Greatsword + Great Weapon Fighting isn't too far behind here (if you always rerolled anything below 3 the average would be 1 point less, but I have no idea how to map out "reroll a damage die of 1 or 2 but if it's 1 or 2 again keep it", lol) and you'd probably be better off taking another fighting style anyways.

The expected value for a d6 (reroll every 1 or 2 once) can be calculated something like this:

E of a d6 = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5

E of a d6 reroll 1 or 2 once = (E+E+3+4+5+6)/6 = (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/6 = 4.17

The argument is that you replace the occurences of 1 and 2 in the calculation of the expected value of the modified roll with the expected value of a normal roll. Pretty sure this method works.

 

[Umbran]

There is no reasoning with people who desperately want to feel victimized by the Monk not being patently overpowered at 1st level.

Mod Note:
You were warned about how you were treating people earlier today. Continuing like that right after a moderator has spoken to you is not going to serve you well. It has gotten you removed from this discussion.

Please treat folks with more respect going forward.

 

[Horwath]

Yes, let's blame those stupid monks for wanting to punch and kick stuff rather than playing the game right!

well, we should.

Weapons are clearly superior to punch and kicks. As they SHOULD be.

flurry of blows should be a complement to weapons combat, adding extra unarmed strikes, not replacing unarmed with weapon attacks in Attack action. Sure you can do it, but you are going to get penalized for it.

That is why I like the kensai subclass the best.
Finally one monk realized that sharpened steel is better than bones with some skin over them at causing harm and decided to double down on that fact.
Might not be the mechanically the best subclass, but it is most realistic one.

 

[Horwath]

The expected value for a d6 (reroll every 1 or 2 once) can be calculated something like this:

E of a d6 = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5

E of a d6 reroll 1 or 2 once = (E+E+3+4+5+6)/6 = (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/6 = 4.17

The argument is that you replace the occurences of 1 and 2 in the calculation of the expected value of the modified roll with the expected value of a normal roll. Pretty sure this method works.

Every now and then somebody reminds as how completely awful 2Handed fighting style is, so no new player will take it by mistake.

Thank you Sir.

 

[James Gasik]

The expected value for a d6 (reroll every 1 or 2 once) can be calculated something like this:

E of a d6 = (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5

E of a d6 reroll 1 or 2 once = (E+E+3+4+5+6)/6 = (3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6)/6 = 4.17

The argument is that you replace the occurences of 1 and 2 in the calculation of the expected value of the modified roll with the expected value of a normal roll. Pretty sure this method works.

So if that's correct, Greatsword with Great Weapon Fighting and 16 Strength would be 12.4 average damage?

 

[Horwath]

So if that's correct, Greatsword with Great Weapon Fighting and 16 Strength would be 12.4 average damage?

11,33 damage

 

[James Gasik]

11,33 damage

Told everyone I'm not a maths guy, lol.

 

[Clint_L]

Where does "triple the survivability" come from?

I corrected it to doubled unless you swap out the extra weapon for a shield.

But even with a shield and longsword a level 2 fighter is doing a base of 9.5 DPR/round compared to the monk's 12.5, with an AC of 18 and second wind. So put them up against, say, a goblin, and they can survive roughly 14 rounds, whereas the monk survives for roughly 5.