Does your campaign have magic shops?

[I'm A Banana]

I let them buy what they want, sure. IMC, the only real limitation is the GP limit of the town (which is a powerful limitation -- metropoli have the emporiums for the rich with the major items, but podunks have a few potions if they're lucky).

Like anything else, it is a continuum, not a black-and-white area. I don't think you loose the feel of magic at all by making it a relatively common thing. Indeed, I think verisimilitude is lost if it is *not* a common thing, yet wizards and sorcerers and adepts and clerics and druids are as common as the DMG suggests they are. If a sizable enough town has a wizard of respectable level, why wouldn't he make items that might be useful in fighting the local wildlife and supply them at his little shop? And it doesn't really subtract want from the game, it just displaces it...no longer to the PC's thirst hungrily after their next magical doodad, but they are passionate for the slaying of evil, for the saving of the world, for the plot and the story rather than the magical trinkets that can come along with it. And every once in a while, they can still slaver over magical trinkets that are way out of their league to buy, that are new, that are unquely designed, or even that are minor or major artifacts.

In a world that has the creatures, lives, magic, etc. of a typical D&D world, magic items are just as much a part of everyone's daily lives as bards. The cleric of love can brew potions of love, and sells them from his temple. The wizard makes scrolls and sells them to other wizards passing through. The bard makes magic weapons. There are adventurers in the world, and there are spellcasters in the world that aren't PC's or villains, and they're going to have a logical operating system. There are monsters and battles that the PC's do not effect going on all around them, and a viable magic item trade is a measurable sign that the world goes on without them. Admittedly, this isn't the right feel for a lot of games -- some people prefer singular unique heroes blessed above and beyond everyone near them that are destined to save the world from a similarly powerful evil. If no one else in the world really has Wizard class, then not many people are going to be making magic items. But that is a variant, not the default level

 

[Jeremy E Grenemyer]

Yes. Magic item shops exist, though they do not necessarily have all the items in the DMG available at once.

One of the hardest things for me to get used to when transitioning from 2E to 3E (as a DM) was the idea that the dungeon wasn’t the only place one could find magic items.

I greatly appreciated the effort the designers put in to list the magic item prices, item creation rules, etc… because it helped DM’s by giving them a set of rules systems for this stuff, as well as giving players an interesting means of crafting their own items.

What I did not appreciate was the blanket assumption in the DMG that magic shops existed, even if only for the wealthy.

Taken together, these rules hurt more than helped (IMO) because they shifted player focus away from, “What can I find while exploring?” to “What can I buy when we get back?” Worse, it killed any sense of discovery. What’s the point in feeling awe over finding a never-before-seen-item –particularly a very old and historied item, when a player could just as easily look it up in a book, tally the cost for all of its abilities, have his character “discover” a need for it in game, then promptly go shopping to buy a newer version of the item with the same abilities.

Heck, even when one considers the extra cost a PC must pay to commission an item, I’m still not entirely comfortable with PC’s buying items.

Which is why I chose the answer above. Even a wealthy city like Waterdeep doesn’t have everything; but if it does have what the players want it may cost their characters as much blood as coin to pay for it.

Lastly, I’ve found that it’s simply not realistic to assume that Rulers, Kings, Monarchs, etc… as well as the heads of Merchant Houses and Guilds will be accepted as “better” if they have one or more known magic items that boost their intellect or personal charm.

If anything, the detractors of such august individuals could claim these items are simply crutches used by their leaders to boost their otherwise mundane or ineffective abilities.

Sorry to rant.

J. Grenemyer

 

[Rel]

They are rarely content with what they have; even when they buy a new toy, they are then wondering how long they need to use it before they can turn it in for something even shinier.

In my experience, this is more of a "player thing" than a "system thing". And I've gotten to the point where I don't really have a big problem with it.

The gang that I game with has players of all types. And the Powergamer and to a lesser extent the Buttkicker (to use Robin Laws' terms) will pore over whatever items are available to try and get maximum benefit by trading this and that item back and forth. The Specialist keeps an eye out and pounces on any item that feeds into his specialty. The Casual Gamer and Storyteller generally take what they find and trade up when they find something better without much focus on buying, selling and trading magic items.

So this is really only an issue with a couple of players and I figure that there is no reason to deny them their fun unless their way of getting it clashes strongly with my ability to maintain a coherent campaign world.

I also find that the more focus there is on what the players are doing (i.e. "Adventuring") and the less focus on why they are doing it (i.e. "The Story"), the more they tend haggle over magic items. If they are really wrapped up in trying to stop the evil Necromancer from completing his ritual or saving the Bard's brother or rooting the Kobolds out of the silver mines, they tend to pay less attention to whether they've got a +2 or +3 sword.

This is not a backhanded insult to anybody who has players that focus on the magic stuff and I don't want it perceived as such. As I said before, for some players that is one of the ways they have fun. Whether you can come to some kind of accomodation with that desire and still have fun yourself (as the GM) can be a troublesome issue.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Yes. Magic item shops exist, though they do not necessarily have all the items in the DMG available at once.

Which is why I chose the answer above. Even a wealthy city like Waterdeep doesn’t have everything; but if it does have what the players want it may cost their characters as much blood as coin to pay for it.

I have to say that I find it extremely unlikely to impossible given the vast variety of items (and their great cost) in the DMG, you would never find anyone who would have one of all of any type of item (wand, potion, wondrous item, magic weapon or shield, etc.)

 

[Orius]

I have magic shops, but most of the stuff available are somewhat randomized minor magic items. More powerful stuff the players have to either commission a wizard or cleric or such to make for them, or they have to get it the old fashioned way — by looting it.

 

[Orius]

Random-user has elegantly explained the motives behind magic item creation: money. Once you remove the profit-motive and the pursuit of money from the field of human calculation, you've not simply made a "fantasy" world. You've made an unbelievable one.

And I would add another motivation that the typical human would follow: power. As you stated, some magic items, like stat boosters would be sought out as a way of gaining power. You're not going to have nobles sitting around on tax revenues and not contemplate using some of that cash to augment themselves magically. It simply goes against human nature. Magic weapons and armor would also be traded to some extent; a powerful ruler would definitely want to buy a +3 or better weapon or armor for his own use if he had the money, and a ruler might look into buying say +1 weapons to equip some shock od elite troops with. Naturally, they're not going to be buying crates of +5 vorpal longswords to hand out to the peasant levies, but magic item commece does not have to lead directly to that.

Of course that doesn't make magical Wal-Marts sprout around the campaign like mushrooms. You're going to have the wealthy and powerful suck up a lot of the good stuff, and while that does include PCs, they're not always going to get everything.

I think one of the problems is that a lot of people start assuming a medieval society, but core D&D really isn't all that medieval. You can do either two things: make it more medieval, and that means cutting back on the fantastic anyway (and this just isn't PC useable magic, it also means the type of encounters a party will face), or just accept that it isn't.

 

[Orius]

I was watching 'Dinotopia' (the series) on TV this morning - that is a fantasy world in which the profit-motive and the pursuit of money has been removed

That's kind of a bad example anyway, since the humans in Dinotopia are all brainwashed by herbivorous dinosaurs.

 

[Ibram]

All in all an interesting thread.

There are no "Magic Shops" where a PC could go in and buy an off the shelf +2 long sword (buy today and you can get a free bundle of +1 bolts!!!). As a rule magic users are rare, and usualy crazy, which limits the number of usable magic items in circulation. Those magic users powerful enough to craft items usualy have more important things to do with their time then craft an item for some random chump who knocks on their door.

Minor "magic" items like healing savles and restorative tonics are usualy available from a herbalist. Small charms are also available from various NPCs.

Some large cities have "Curio Shops" where rare and exotic items are sold, but care must be taken when purchasing from such a place as you are more likely to get a dud then something real (unless you know what you are looking for).

More powerful items like armor and weapons are usualy family treasures or important relics, and as such selling such an item is virtualy unthinkable. This can make looting a magic item from a fallen foe very dangerous, as the sword may not be his but rather his families (who will go to great lenghts to get it back).

Having an item custom made is always a quest. Even finding a magic user powerful enough is difficult (those with such power dont like to be bothered by every punk warrior who "desperatly needs a magic sword to defeat my enemies!!" Once found they have to be bargened with, and those with such power a chest full of gold is meaningless.

now IMC an encounter with a daemon or other supernatural creature (an opponent that requires magic to be defeated) is very very rare. 99% of my adventures involve humanoid creatures (Humans, Elves, Orcs, ect...) and as such magic is not needed.

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The above is the ingame logic behind the scarcity of magical items. As a DM any magic item of significant power is given for a reason. They have backstories that I can use as adventures or side quests. Powerful items IMC evolve as the wielder becomes more powerful, and sometimes maifest new abilities (this allows my players to keep the same weapon over many levels, if not the lifetime of the character).

 

[Al]

As a rule magic users are rare, and usualy crazy, which limits the number of usable magic items in circulation. Those magic users powerful enough to craft items usualy have more important things to do with their time then craft an item for some random chump who knocks on their door.

Like I said, that's a fair premise. If magic is rare, then magic shops aren't likely to exist. The thrust of my argument is that in canon DnD, given the proliferation of magic users, there will be. If you want a different level of magic - sure, go ahead .

And I would add another motivation that the typical human would follow: power. As you stated, some magic items, like stat boosters would be sought out as a way of gaining power. You're not going to have nobles sitting around on tax revenues and not contemplate using some of that cash to augment themselves magically

Expressed more elegantly than I .

Lastly, I’ve found that it’s simply not realistic to assume that Rulers, Kings, Monarchs, etc… as well as the heads of Merchant Houses and Guilds will be accepted as “better” if they have one or more known magic items that boost their intellect or personal charm.

It's not a question of being "accepted as "better""- it's the simple fact that they are better. An 18 Int merchant leader will be better at rigorously analysing profit margins, an 18 Wis monarch make more enlightened decisions, and a 18 Cha diplomat be more persuasive in negotiations. It would be extremely unlikely that they would simply be rejected out of hand. Perhaps there could be a pseudo-Amish community who reject magic just as the real world Amish reject technology, but in a world where magic is prevalent, I don't see any logical objections.

If anything, the detractors of such august individuals could claim these items are simply crutches used by their leaders to boost their otherwise mundane or ineffective abilities.

Perhaps, but these detractors could probably easily attack them were they unaugmented. To the ordinary peasant, if your economy is booming under the guidance of the magically-augmented lord, I don't think you're that bothered that his success is down to a +6 Headband of Intellect.

 

[DragonLancer]

What I did not appreciate was the blanket assumption in the DMG that magic shops existed, even if only for the wealthy.

Taken together, these rules hurt more than helped (IMO) because they shifted player focus away from, “What can I find while exploring?” to “What can I buy when we get back?” Worse, it killed any sense of discovery. What’s the point in feeling awe over finding a never-before-seen-item –particularly a very old and historied item, when a player could just as easily look it up in a book, tally the cost for all of its abilities, have his character “discover” a need for it in game, then promptly go shopping to buy a newer version of the item with the same abilities.

Heck, even when one considers the extra cost a PC must pay to commission an item, I’m still not entirely comfortable with PC’s buying items.

Exactly. Very good point, thats not all that different from mine.

Hong, just because you disagree with me, doesn't give you the option to be rude. We all have different views on the game, and I was just expressing my opinion. I was just trying to explain my view.

And as for the idea (I forget now which poster said it), that not having magic shop's destroy's game logic and feel, I really disagree. Do you really think that casters have nothing better to do than craft magic items for sale? Wizards (for example) have better things to do... studying, rivalries...etc than sit at a desk churning out items for profit. Thats taking things too contemporary. It may work in your game, and thats fine, but throughout this thread such views have been forced over others views.

I don't think it defies game logic and feel to assume that items are rare, and fairly difficult to get hold of even if the default level of the game. The idea that every soldier, nobleman, rogue, tavernkeeper and priest has magic items makes no sense, and defies logic more than my opinion.