Does your campaign have magic shops?

[Doug McCrae]

I think that what folks are dumbfounded by is how difficult it can be to reconcile the rules as written, including the considerable number of spellcasters generated using the guidelines in the DMG, and the availability of Item Creation Feats at relatively low levels, with the idea that some items would not wind up for sale in some format in some locations.

Not to mention the fact that on page 142 the 3.5 DMG specifically states that magic items are available for sale and that there might be shops specialising in magic items in the largest cities.

Of course there's nothing wrong with deviating from the RAW, so long as you're clear and up front about it. In the DnD world I'm writing at the moment, there are no magic shops. In fact, characters can't even take item creation feats apart from Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion. That's my world though and it deviates sightly from the default. I've argued the pro-trade in magic items case as I find all of the arguments against it existing in typical DnD settings to be implausible.

 

[The_Gneech]

It seems that everyone is so intent on taking my words literally that they arn't reading the intent behind my words.

Not being telepaths, we have only your words to go on! Please be careful with them, they are dangerous when mishandled.

-The Gneech

 

[Al]

Do you really think that casters have nothing better to do than craft magic items for sale? Wizards (for example) have better things to do... studying, rivalries...etc than sit at a desk churning out items for profit.

Read my analysis again. Of all those who are high enough level to have item creation feats, only one-fourth are considered to actually have them, only one-half of those actively use them, and even they only craft an item once every *six months*. Assuming that the "average" item is, say, a +1 weapon, it takes 16 hours every six months to craft items at a rate which would produce the plethora of items outlined. It's a vastly conservative estimate. I spend more time in the shower than the "item creator" wizard spends crafting under this line of analysis, and I've never been described as "having nothing better to do than sit in the shower all day". This is not a magical item factory. Wizards are not constantly churning out items. I'd say that spending 16 hours every six months crafting items is not exactly some sort of constant shackling to their item creation lab. They have more than enough time (i.e. all but four days in the year) to pursue other interests.

The idea that every soldier, nobleman, rogue, tavernkeeper and priest has magic items makes no sense, and defies logic more than my opinion

That's patently not the case. Not evey soldier, rogue, tavernkeeper and priest can afford to fork out 2,000gp for a permanent magical item. That's twice as much as an average house, or sixty years' wages for an average peasant. They might be available, but they're not cheap. Just because Ferraris, LearJets , luxury yachts, deluxe holiday homes and cruise missiles can be obtained for cash, it doesn't mean that everyone has them.

Some wizards pay for food with the tried and true methiod: "Not setting you on fire."

Does every fighter earn his keep by "not beating you up"? Does every rogue earn his living by "not robbing you"? No? Then why should every wizard hold the world to ransom. For one, no good or probably no neutral wizard would earn his living from blatant extortion. Secondly, large cities would have authorties to deal with this sort of thing; and smaller settlements occasionally put out for groups of "adventurers" to remedy such situations . Sure, some might earn their living this way; like I've said, I'm only taking one in eight spellcasters to have and practise item creation feats. That's not exactly all of them.

So by your book, every wizard in the world sits there churning out magic items?

I think I've dealt with this.

I never said that NO wizard ever took gold for a magic item, just that 99% of those who can have better things to do with their time then churn out +1 longswords for every punk kid who comes along.

Alternately, 87.5% have better things to do than produce a +1 longsword every six months .

Making something for sale commodifies it. Shopping is not heroic. Purchase of magic items isn't part of any genre I want to emulate.

Sure, but it's realistic. If the PCs want to buy a ship or whatever, they can presumably acquire one with relative ease for a simple exchange of money. This isn't about "heroism". It's about allowing a campaign world to act in a realistic fashion. It's about verisimilitude.

These assertions that capitalist dogma should hold true in fantasy worlds are quite bizarre.

It's the default assumption in DnD. You could make a socialist world, but it would be strange (socialism relies on a huge modernised bureaucracy) and non-core. The entire canon DnD is premised upon capitalism as the mode of economic exchange, and this is also true of all WotC-published campaign worlds.

Of course there's nothing wrong with deviating from the RAW, so long as you're clear and up front about it. In the DnD world I'm writing at the moment, there are no magic shops. In fact, characters can't even take item creation feats apart from Scribe Scroll and Brew Potion. That's my world though and it deviates sightly from the default. I've argued the pro-trade in magic items case as I find all of the arguments against it existing in typical DnD settings to be implausible.

Precisely. This argument isn't about campaign flavour or world-building. It's about logical deductions given certain premises. I've nothing against people like Ibram who wish to build alternate Lovecraftian magic systems, or Doug who prefers a low-magic world, but this argument is about whether, in canon DnD and given canon assumptions, there would be magic shops. It seems quite clearly that there will be.

 

[DragonLancer]

Among my favorite quotes from all gamerdom is by Robin Laws who said, "There is only one correct way to play roleplaying games: The way that best suits you and your group of players."

I think that what might be rubbin' some people the wrong way is that they are perceiving you as saying, "If you have Magic Item stores in your campaign then you're doing it wrong." I think they are understanding you to say, "Magic items should be special and mystical and not generally for sale and portraying them as mere comodities is bad gaming."

Well, I do think that magic items should be special and mystical, but I'm not saying that anyone else needs to follow my view on that. I would not be so arrogant as to say that other people's games are played badly, thats not for me to say since I don't know perosnally, nor play in those posters games.

The D&D economy as presented in the core books is flawed anyway, so relying on that as a guide is a little bit dodgey.

And if that is indeed what you are saying, then it is you who are wrong. Because they are not "doing it wrong" and it is not "bad gaming" if it is what works best for them and their players. Different people and different groups find different aspects of the game to be the ones where they most like to focus.

I will admit that there are some aspects of gaming that I think people do do wrong, but this isn't one of them. I just have a view that because the core books say X that it doesn't have to be that way.

Your answer to this dilemma seems to fall along the lines of "well, it just shouldn't be that way". Hence the conflict.

I never said that. I'm just trying to throw an opposing view out there, and I got grief for it.

I'll also mention that, this being a message board, we are communicating only by the written word. That makes it tremendously difficult for many of us to guess things like "the intent behind your words". As such we are largely left to try our best to understand the litteral meaning of the words you have written. Hence the conflict stretches to Page 7.

Yes, I understand that, and if I was being deliberately evasive in my posts I might agree. However, I was stating my opinion on a topic that does strike a cord with my gaming philosophy (note I said mine, not everybody elses).

---

Here goes... In my campaigns...

1. Magic items are rare, mystical and wonderous items that are for all intents and purposes priceless. Your everyday villager or city person is probably never going to see a magic item (except for those potions they may be able to afford) in their whole life. Magic item shops do not exist. You want potions or scrolls, find a willing mage or visit your local big temple.

2. Spellcasters, while not rare, are not so commonplace either, and those that do exist are more likely to take Metamagic feats than item creation feats. Wizards are about knowledge and gaining power in their spellcasting, not churning out magic swords and rings.

3. Magic items have been handed over to temples, by my players, in return for healing/scrolls/potions/raising the dead/information, but people just do not have the kind of money that magic items would sell for.

 

[Rel]

In my previous post, I said:

Your answer to this dilemma seems to fall along the lines of "well, it just shouldn't be that way". Hence the conflict.

to which you replied:

I never said that. I'm just trying to throw an opposing view out there, and I got grief for it.

That is simply not true. You have repeatedly said that it "wasn't that way" in your games (which is fine). You have repeatedly said that it "should't be that way" in the core rules (which is a fine opinion so long as you are willing to understand that others won't feel the same). And on a couple of occasions you've said (whether you meant to or not) that other people were effectively messing up their games if they made magic commonplace (not fine).

You've presented your argument in a way that sounds preachy and dictatorial and that's why you're getting grief. To wit:

Magic items are not meant to be everywhere. They are meant to be rare and wonderous, as I said. Even if a magic shop sells mainly potions but has a +1 sword, and a couple +1 Rings of Protection, you've lost something in the "magic" of the game.

Don't turn them into every day common things. You really do lose the magic and awe of magical treasures if you do that.

If what you meant was, "these are just my opinions as to how the game works best and makes the most sense for me" then the onus is on you to say that. Now that you've clarified that you were just holding forth on your opinions, I'm sure that the conversation will proceed much more smoothly.

 

[The_Universe]

I couldn't quite find something analagous to how I run things, so I have not yet answered the poll.

IMC, there are essentially 2 ways for people to acquire magical items. The most common (and most legal) is to contract with a powerful-enough spellcaster, usually for the amounts listed in the DMG, +/-10% depending on their ability to bargain. Not all spellcasters can create all magical items, especially since most arcane spellcasters in my game are sorcerers, who lack versatility in item creation. Since most of the purchases of magic items are done by contract, these legitimate dealers rarely have any sort of inventory, and it can take weeks or months to get an item created, depending on the difficulty of its creation.

Secondarily, there is a "black market" for magical items, run primarily by wizards. Wizards, IMC, are generally considered to be allied with a powerful BBEG to the north fo the main campaign area, and one of the ways in which he gathers power is to deal in forbidden enchantments, and by ensuring that his minions maintain an inventory for certain magical "emergencies." Although you can acquire an item through the black market quickly, prices are often higher, and it's highly illegal to deal with the aforementioned BBEG, at all (if you can find one of his "dealers").

 

[DragonLancer]

That is simply not true. You have repeatedly said that it "wasn't that way" in your games (which is fine).

True, as have other people.

You have repeatedly said that it "should't be that way" in the core rules (which is a fine opinion so long as you are willing to understand that others won't feel the same).

Again, I do understand that. No argument.

And on a couple of occasions you've said (whether you meant to or not) that other people were effectively messing up their games if they made magic commonplace (not fine).

I never said that. People's games are their own. My personal view (as I have siad throughout this discussion) is that magic should not be everywhere - for me that destroys the feel of the game. But that view is purely mine. Not once have I put down anyone for thinking otherwise.

You've presented your argument in a way that sounds preachy and dictatorial and that's why you're getting grief.

If you choose to take it that way, thats up to you, but it was not intended such and I don't think it did come across that way. Getting grief for having a differing view is something I expect from these boards.

If what you meant was, "these are just my opinions as to how the game works best and makes the most sense for me" then the onus is on you to say that.

Thats what I have been saying, its others who decided to take it differently.

Anyway, back to the discussion proper.

 

[Rel]

Anyway, back to the discussion proper.

Fair enough. And no hard feelings.

 

[DragonLancer]

Fair enough. And no hard feelings.

No. No hard feelings.

 

[Storm Raven]

That's the dominant concern for me, and means I want nothing to do with magic shops. I can't speak for the new D&D rules, which make magic-item manufacture far too easy for my taste, but in the D&D milieux I'm concerned with -- the World of Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, as conceived by their creators -- the magical economy has most certainly been thought through on the realist level and magic shops would not make sense.

"Would not make sense"?

Did you miss the Thayan magic bazaars, or the itinerant magic dealers and magic shops that riddle the Forgotten Realms setting? The fact is that the magical economy in Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms (pre-3e versions) quite bluntly didn't make sense, because they reflected nothing like anything that has ever happened with respect to valuable resources in the real world.