5E Does your group use feats?

Does your group use feats?


  • Total voters
    124

BlivetWidget

Explorer
Strong point. Also, even if your spell does take a save, you may be able to target it against a victim who has a low bonus (or even penalty) to that save.

Your caster stat also improves you cantrips, though - or do you not find yourself stooping to cast cantrips often?
Well, it improves the odds for your attack/save cantrips. Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Mending, etc. don't care about stats. But I know you meant for combat, and I agree that it does. But an ASI only improves their hit odds by 5%. Even if you're concerned about cantrip hit odds, I think a case could still be made for picking up more cantrips through Magic Initiate so you have access to more damage types or can target different stats, which will often help you more than 5%.

As a player, I actually rely heavily on damaging cantrips because spell slots are such a limited resource. But I don't play the wizard who's there to win every small fight. So unless I think the team can't handle it, I'm just going to hang back and toss in some cantrips so I'm not being useless. If it's really important, I'm probably concentrating on a spell. Another important note is that you burn through spell slots a lot slower if you're using some of those great spells like Polymorph or Animate Objects. You can eat through a lot of spell slots with Fireballs and Vitriolic Spheres, but a single Polymorph can usually get you through an encounter (the Dodge action helps if you can't find good cover).
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Well, it improves the odds for your attack/save cantrips. Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Mending, etc. don't care about stats. But I know you meant for combat, and I agree that it does. But an ASI only improves their hit odds by 5%. Even if you're concerned about cantrip hit odds, I think a case could still be made for picking up more cantrips through Magic Initiate so you have access to more damage types or can target different stats, which will often help you more than 5%.

As a player, I actually rely heavily on damaging cantrips because spell slots are such a limited resource. But I don't play the wizard who's there to win every small fight. So unless I think the team can't handle it, I'm just going to hang back and toss in some cantrips so I'm not being useless. If it's really important, I'm probably concentrating on a spell. Another important note is that you burn through spell slots a lot slower if you're using some of those great spells like Polymorph or Animate Objects. You can eat through a lot of spell slots with Fireballs and Vitriolic Spheres, but a single Polymorph can usually get you through an encounter (the Dodge action helps if you can't find good cover).
That's how I tend to play my non-bladesinger wizards as well.

Also - depending on stats and such I tend to pick up Warcaster or Resislient Con to help Concentration Saves. Or Lucky. Though since most of my wizards are Variant Humans, I've usually got that covered either at the start or by 4th level, then at 8th/12th I'm picking up an ASI
 
I'd put some very heavy caveats on this claim. I would put three feats on a wizard before I went for a single ASI. Most of the great wizard spells just happen. To name only a few: Shield, Misty Step, Tiny Hut, Polymorph as a buff, Animate Objects, Wall of Force, Simulacrum, Maze, ... you don't even have to pick up dice of any kind to successfully cast these amazing spells.

Given the choice between making the wizard's save DC just 5% better when it's not needed for most of the great spells anyway (in or out of combat)... or taking a feat, there are some very attractive options for feats. Resilient for those Con saves, Magic Initiate for more cantrips and an extra first level spell, etc. The opportunity cost is just so low.
Some of the level 2-5 control spells totally trivialize encounters to a much greater extent than the level 2-5 spells you mentioned. DC is important for these spells.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
Currently allowed and 2 of the 6 players took feats.

Of course that means currently allowed and 4/6 did not.
As in the 4/6 took ASI's and are only planning on taking ASI's or as in the 4/6 took ASI's so far, but plan on taking feats later?

Or something other than that perhaps?

I'm just always fascinated by people who have access to feats in a game and choose not to use them at all.
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
As in the 4/6 took ASI's and are only planning on taking ASI's or as in the 4/6 took ASI's so far, but plan on taking feats later?

Or something other than that perhaps?

I'm just always fascinated by people who have access to feats in a game and choose not to use them at all.
it’s all situational. My last wizard took war caster as soon as possible because he found himself the target of a lot of attacks and did a lot of concentration spells as his thing. My current wizard went with ASI because CONCENTRATION IS FOR WEAKLINGS AND IM GONNA BLAST EVERYTHING TO HELL
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
As in the 4/6 took ASI's and are only planning on taking ASI's or as in the 4/6 took ASI's so far, but plan on taking feats later?

Or something other than that perhaps?

I'm just always fascinated by people who have access to feats in a game and choose not to use them at all.
I don't know for sure, but likely they won't pick them at all as the campaign will end before level 12.

But honestly my players can barely be bothered to crack open a game book much less examine a list of feats. We could play without ASIs and it wouldn't make much of a difference to them.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I don't know for sure, but likely they won't pick them at all as the campaign will end before level 12.

But honestly my players can barely be bothered to crack open a game book much less examine a list of feats. We could play without ASIs and it wouldn't make much of a difference to them.
Interesting...
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
Interesting...
Yup.

Apart from me everyone is brand new to the game (even the DM). I've taken 2 feats and one other player took Dual Welder after I explained (several times) that if she wanted her player to fight with 2 battleaxes it would help very much.

I sometimes regret this decision after I have to explain how extra attack and bonus actions work every other session.
 

Parmandur

Legend
Well, it improves the odds for your attack/save cantrips. Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Mending, etc. don't care about stats. But I know you meant for combat, and I agree that it does. But an ASI only improves their hit odds by 5%. Even if you're concerned about cantrip hit odds, I think a case could still be made for picking up more cantrips through Magic Initiate so you have access to more damage types or can target different stats, which will often help you more than 5%.

As a player, I actually rely heavily on damaging cantrips because spell slots are such a limited resource. But I don't play the wizard who's there to win every small fight. So unless I think the team can't handle it, I'm just going to hang back and toss in some cantrips so I'm not being useless. If it's really important, I'm probably concentrating on a spell. Another important note is that you burn through spell slots a lot slower if you're using some of those great spells like Polymorph or Animate Objects. You can eat through a lot of spell slots with Fireballs and Vitriolic Spheres, but a single Polymorph can usually get you through an encounter (the Dodge action helps if you can't find good cover).
In 5E, 5% can be make or break in the long run, if the players are pushed. See also, Champion's extended crit range which is huge over time.

As to the poll, no never. I had a DM allow them in a game once, but nobody took the option, even the Human PCs were standard.
 

BlivetWidget

Explorer
In 5E, 5% can be make or break in the long run, if the players are pushed. See also, Champion's extended crit range which is huge over time.
There is a world of difference in the importance of ASIs between a martial class that can attack multiple times every single turn and which gets to increase its crit range by two hundred percent for every single one of those attacks... and a wizard who is best served by only making attacks as a filler action.

The wizard isn't using Chill Touch to slay dragons, he has other tools for that job. Tools that don't require rolling dice. Being marginally more effective with a cantrip isn't bad by any means, but my argument is that it's not what determines success as a wizard and that taking a feat does not derail a wizard's career in the slightest.
 

Parmandur

Legend
There is a world of difference in the importance of ASIs between a martial class that can attack multiple times every single turn and which gets to increase its crit range by two hundred percent for every single one of those attacks... and a wizard who is best served by only making attacks as a filler action.

The wizard isn't using Chill Touch to slay dragons, he has other tools for that job. Tools that don't require rolling dice. Being marginally more effective with a cantrip isn't bad by any means, but my argument is that it's not what determines success as a wizard and that taking a feat does not derail a wizard's career in the slightest.
In a full adventure day, Cantrip usage can make a big difference. At least as much as anything from a Feat.
 

Salthorae

Imperial Mountain Dew Taster
I mean, just go gander at some of the builds Treant Monk just did for all 10 Wizard subclasses. There were some, maybe a couple, that almost effectively tanked Int, but were still very effective wizards.

YMMV of course :)
 
I mean, just go gander at some of the builds Treant Monk just did for all 10 Wizard subclasses. There were some, maybe a couple, that almost effectively tanked Int, but were still very effective wizards.

YMMV of course :)
Whose arguing a wizard cannot be effective without maxing int?
 

Shiroiken

Adventurer
I'd put some very heavy caveats on this claim. I would put three feats on a wizard before I went for a single ASI. Most of the great wizard spells just happen. To name only a few: Shield, Misty Step, Tiny Hut, Polymorph as a buff, Animate Objects, Wall of Force, Simulacrum, Maze, ... you don't even have to pick up dice of any kind to successfully cast these amazing spells.

Given the choice between making the wizard's save DC just 5% better when it's not needed for most of the great spells anyway (in or out of combat)... or taking a feat, there are some very attractive options for feats. Resilient for those Con saves, Magic Initiate for more cantrips and an extra first level spell, etc. The opportunity cost is just so low.
Well I was referring to my groups, not overall. The other issue is that most feats are only "okay" for a lot of spellcaster (Resilient is amazing), unless you are working a specific build that incorporates specific feats (like Warcaster or Spell Sniper). Since most characters are likely only going to have 3 opportunities before the campaign ends, it discourages my players from taking them.
 

BlivetWidget

Explorer
Well I was referring to my groups, not overall.
That's absolutely fair. I do think they should reconsider, though! (Also to be fair, some casting classes rely on spells that are more tied to their main stat than wizards are). It also depends on the game, how many pillars of play are in use, etc. A strictly combat-focused game isn't going to see much use out of the Prodigy feat, for example, but it's worth it over an ASI in a game that offers more applications for tools and skills.
 
That's absolutely fair. I do think they should reconsider, though! (Also to be fair, some casting classes rely on spells that are more tied to their main stat than wizards are). It also depends on the game, how many pillars of play are in use, etc. A strictly combat-focused game isn't going to see much use out of the Prodigy feat, for example, but it's worth it over an ASI in a game that offers more applications for tools and skills.
Wizard Spells - a ton of the best ones per spell level are tied to casting stat.

Just because you can make a wizard that has doesn't rely for save spells doesn't mean that's a better wizard than the one relying on saves.
 

Ashrym

Adventurer
I'm in the "delay asi for feat" camp with wizards. It's irrelevant for 3 levels already and arguably not a big enough bonus to be better than a feat to maintain concentration for the next 8 levels.

The bonus applying to cantrips damage is the exception and the number of cantrip attacks in a day is low. People like sleep and magic missile at low levels for a reason.

I'd ditch CHA more on bards if it didn't matter for inspiration dice and healing spells. Wizards are surprisingly easy to work around INT a bit. I wouldn't skip more than 1 ASI, though.
 

Ath-kethin

Explorer
Personally I’d probably sooner rule only Feats at ASI levels than no Feats. +2 in your primary ability score is a very strong boost, and also pretty boring, which is a bad combination in my opinion.
I've run games where we did abilities as standard array +2 (everyone had 2 points to add to their ability scores as they saw fit), feats but no ASIs, and no multiclassing. We ended up with much more varied and IMO interesting characters than we usually do that way. And next to no balance issues or complaints.
 

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