Macbeth wasn't a tragedy because he succeeded in becoming the king?I wouldn't say so. The character succeeded in his goals. Granted he sacrificed himself to do so, but, he did succeed. Had he tried, failed AND became evil, THAT would be a tragedy to me.
Interesting. I always viewed him, in retrospect, as a hopeful hero who became a tragic anti-hero. He lost his friends (other party members), his status in the elven community and his identity to save them. In the end, he hated what he had become so much and refused to go back to the surface. He felt broken.I wouldn't say so. The character succeeded in his goals. Granted he sacrificed himself to do so, but, he did succeed. Had he tried, failed AND became evil, THAT would be a tragedy to me.
In the end, he hated what he had become so much and refused to go back to the surface. He felt broken.It would be a tragedy if he also hated being drowish .
Becoming king was never MacBeth's goal. Exposing Polonius and getting revenge was his goal. And that pursuit of that goal results in the death of everyone and everything he loves, including himself.Macbeth wasn't a tragedy because he succeeded in becoming the king?
Oh, I get that it's a sad ending. Totally get that. But, "sad ending" is not tragedy. If your protagonist has success, then it's not a tragedy in the literary genre sense. Tragedy, again, in the literary genre sense, has a very specific meaning. And @I'm A Banana made it very clear that it's the literary genre sense that we're talking about. Even in something like Breaking Bad, Walter totally destroys his family, he dies, everything he tried to accomplish pretty much goes up in flames. You might argue that Jesse escaping is something, but, at what cost?In the end, he hated what he had become so much and refused to go back to the surface. He felt broken.
I think you are confusing Macbeth with Hamlet (and Polonius with Claudius).Becoming king was never MacBeth's goal. Exposing Polonius and getting revenge was his goal. And that pursuit of that goal results in the death of everyone and everything he loves, including himself.
Becoming the king?
Something is a tragedy when it's sad. But, we're talking about Tragedy the literary genre, so, whipping out an Oxford dictionary isn't going to actually help you here.
So, let's talk genre in D&D.
One of the harder genres to splice into the heroic fantasy of standard D&D is tragedy. To evoke the pathos of someone doing their best to do good and utterly, completely failing.
How do you evoke this? What in D&D seems to get the most in the way of it? Can you cause the players to feel pathos like that in your games? Do you ever inflict tragedy...on the PC's? Or is it NPC-only? How can the players see a tragedy about to play out and NOT intervene to fix it?
For the sake of this discussion, assume that there was a good session zero and everyone's on board with a bit of a gut-punch, but also that fundamentally PC's are assumed to survive (assume basically a 1-15-or-so game where the party remains consistent).