D&D 5E Don't Throw 5e Away Because of Hasbro

[Clint_L]

Well, I'm personally responsible for introducing many dozens of students to Dread. The rules can be taught in less than a minute and it is ideal as a teaching tool for helping students understand the importance of building rising tension when creating a story. I play at least one game, spread over several sessions, in my creative writing classes, and I've used it in other classes as well. I'm also always trying to get other people to play it with me outside of school. I even got Lanefan to come over and play it at my place, which was a treat!

 

[Minigiant]

Do you realize that the entire line of argument you've been advancing in this thread makes you sound like you're advising us to stay in WotC's arms?

I'm sorry if I'm unclear.
I'm saying don't throw Hasbro in the trash only to walk into someone else's garbage.

I've seen many fans and communities leave one company just to walk into another's knife because they let the new love get away with stuff they ripped old one for.Know what you are getting into and keep the same edge. People act different at the top.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'm sorry if I'm unclear.
I'm saying don't throw Hasbro in the trash only to walk into someone else's garbage.

I've seen many fans and communities leave one company just to walk into another's knife because they let the new love get away with stuff they ripped old one for.Know what you are getting into and keep the same edge. People act different at the top.

That's significantly better than what it seemed. Thank you for clarifying.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

"the only way" is to see that there is no true one way of doing anything.

That said, "

Is a pretty harsh statement, so is dnd the only "actually good game" to you? That is pretty insulting to the thousands of non-dnd rpg's out there.

And if you mean good games without toxic fanbases, well, those don't really exist, do they? Every fanbase has some element of toxicity, that is unavoidable, just like this community requires mods.

How am I insulting thousands of games? Nothing I said called out all other games as "bad" and that Wizards has the only good game in D&D. Though I do recognize that D&D already has homefield advantage of being the 800lb. gorilla.

I specifically called out 2 primary factors. A good game, and a large, positive, vocal community that can spread the word. A game can be good and have a small community. There are lots of great games, but how many of those great games have grown large, positive communities that aren't always comparing themselves to Wizards/D&D, or aren't antagonistic and off-putting? Paizo is the biggest, and their community is as toxic and fractured as much as Wizards' because Paizo keeps misstepping too.

The OGL debacle was the big thing that caused fear in the industry, and Wizards walked it back and made it future proof with the Creative Commons move. Since then Wizards and D&D has done nothing to actively discourage other game systems. Sure, their efforts make it easier to adopt their game, and for other companies to use their system, but that's not the same thing. In fact, the D&D designers are advocates for other games, and are friends with the designers of other companies.

People can villainize Wizards and D&D all they want, but that is based on Wizards screwing their own stuff up.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

The astounding amount of forever GM's might disagree with you. GM retention is a problem, I won't pretend to have any solutions for it.

I will!

Actually good, well-made encounter design rules out of the box. Truly useful advice and guidance, preferably in every book: not just "You can do X, or you can do Not-X, and it's up to you to decide!", legit actually breaking down how and why you would choose to do various things. (For example, instead of just fiat declaring that human/elf/dwarf/halfling exist in every universe and other races are rare weirdos, tell people how different slates of available races can explore a theme, set a tone, or highlight useful things.) Include productive rules for how to improvise actions that are both fair (meaning, reasonable success chance) and worthwhile (truly worth trying for, neither "pointless" nor "overpowered"). Effective game balance on a pervasive level, so DMs can stop worrying about whether they need to pull punches, or whether some players will dominate play through major power gaps, and instead go all-out with the confidence that the system has their back.

In other words, rather than presupposing excellent DM skills and thus doing nothing to help, a system that presupposes that most would-be DMs are well-meaning but often ignorant or untrained, and thus in need of support and guidance. DMs that already have high skill may not need such rules, but they are an absolute godsend for new or would-be DMs.

Designing your game only for the already-long-invested, already-highly-skilled is an excellent way to make your game flourish for a brief time and then die horribly thereafter as it struggles to grow. The DM shortage will only get worse with the attitude 5e has taken toward supporting new DMs.

The number of GM's that say they can't run non-dnd games due to pressure from players runs contrary to this.

I haven't seen this myself, but I certainly believe it, based on how hard it is to find any games that aren't 5e or PF1e out there.

This reasoning ignores the reality of the situation, that most people aren't aware of the rest of the industry at all. Dnd looms over and beyond the entire industry, there is no easier way you can explain other rpg's to someone who knows nothing about the hobby as "its like dnd." And most never look beyond wotc to see what else is out there.

If people don't know you exist, how can you attract players?

Yep. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. One (of many) reasons why I never take it seriously when people argue that D&D must be doing something super duper ultra right and amazing because it's the market leader. It is, at least in part, market leader because most people never bother to even look at the competition. It's extremely hard to ever breach that barrier.

 

[Art Waring]

The OGL debacle was the big thing that caused fear in the industry, and Wizards walked it back and made it future proof with the Creative Commons move.

Nothing is future proofed. They can pull this entire stunt anytime they want to by releasing a new poison-pill OGL for the new edition in a few months, just like they tried with the 4e GSL, requiring anyone who wants to make material for the new edition to sign the 1.1 or 1.whatever version they push onto 3pp's. Shall we learn from history, or shall we be forever doomed to repeat it?

Since then Wizards and D&D has done nothing to actively discourage other game systems. Sure, their efforts make it easier to adopt their game, and for other companies to use their system, but that's not the same thing. In fact, the D&D designers are advocates for other games, and are friends with the designers of other companies.

Dude, I just posted a disclaimer a few posts back that I was not in any way talking about creatives and employees at wotc, many of whom are also freelancers and have worked in many companies across the industry.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Nothing is future proofed. They can pull this entire stunt anytime they want to by releasing a new poison-pill OGL for the new edition in a few months, just like they tried with the 4e GSL, requiring anyone who wants to make material for the new edition to sign the 1.1 or 1.whatever version they push onto 3pp's. Shall we learn from history, or shall we be forever doomed to repeat it?


Dude, I just posted a disclaimer a few posts back that I was not in any way talking about creatives and employees at wotc, many of whom are also freelancers and have worked in many companies across the industry.

The Creative Commons opens it up so that the OGL cannot be used as a poison pill. That was the entire point.

I also wasn't saying you were saying anything bad about them. I'm saying that I see a lot of hate and toxicity out there in the 3PP fandom that is pushing people away. I don't follow ToV because of how they handled their early playtest messaging. The Paizo crowd lost me too. Now many others don't care for D&D for their own reasons, like certain Hasbro/Wizards business decisions, and the persistent editing and QA snafus, and that's all valid too.

But the D&D designers are doing a great job being positive and winning people over. They are communicating well about their playtest and getting decent scores. They are getting engagement from famous people who bring other fans in. I think that other games would need to be able to do those same positive things that D&D is doing to get more of that market share. And I don't see anyone accomplishing that yet. The larger TTRPG community just isn't biting enough to challenge D&D. I know it can anger folks that no matter how much Hasbro/Wizards keeps tripping over themselves, that they are still doing well. We'll see how 2024 goes. shrug

 

[Art Waring]

The Creative Commons opens it up so that the OGL cannot be used as a poison pill. That was the entire point.

They can change the rules significantly enough so that the 2014 5.1 SRD will become incompatible & thus obsolete in a few months. Character creation has already changed significantly. The new SRD will very likely be released with a new OGL license. I highly doubt they are going to have anything new released into creative commons, especially since they have failed to fulfill their promise to release both the 3.5 & 4e SRD into CC.

shrug

I think that its cool if you feel that way personally, but I don't think that means you get to say that every 3pp scene is toxic, while the wotc scene isn't?

other games would need to be able to do those same positive things that D&D is doing to get more of that market share

You can't compare anything else in the industry to wotc. It is absurd to try. They make a billion off of MtG every year, they can lose money on dnd and not care about it, saturating the market with nothing but dnd, cutting out LGS' and selling direct to amazon, cutting out distributors and companies that have supported them for years. They can restructure the entire industry on a whim, either by threat of rescinding licenses, or by being so financially invulnerable as to wither any dissent to their desires.

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-Some Final Thoughts For the Evening Regarding the History of the OGL:

What you might not understand, is that for those of us who fully embraced the 3e SRD back when it was released, we saw hope. We saw the original OGL as the holy grail, and have studied the original 3e SRD like a holy codex from the early days of the open source movement as an example to shine. We were terribly, horribly, utterly wrong.

FOR OVER TWENTY YEARS, we trusted them to stay true to the spirit of the license they themselves created. For over twenty years the OGL was a safe haven for publishers, thats over twenty years of goodwill that now lies dead in the boneyard. They do not get that goodwill back from 3pp's in a few months, if ever again.

They tried to burn the whole industry down, including me. I spent years making a 5e compatible game that was less than a year away from release when the OGL debacle happened, and I lost not only years of work, and my entire business, but I lost any faith in their ability to keep any promise they might make in the future. I trusted them a second time after the 4e GSL tried to kill the OGL, it is my failure alone that I trusted them again.

Should I as a potential 3pp be receptive to their "positive" social media presence, or their successful attempts to destroy my years of hard work?

My response was to leave the 5e ecosystem and make my own game, they really didn't leave us with any other options. I am not contributing to a dnd monopoly where its one game to rule them all.

 

[mamba]

They can change the rules significantly enough so that the 2014 5.1 SRD will become incompatible & thus obsolete in a few months.

theoretically yes, but that is not happening with the 2024 books

Character creation has already changed significantly.

has it? in ways that matter to the SRD?

The new SRD will very likely be released with a new OGL license. I highly doubt they are going to have anything new released into creative commons

I fully expect a new CC SRD, or a delta document

especially since they have failed to fulfill their promise to release both the 3.5 & 4e SRD into CC.

that was never promised, esp. not for 4e, which never had one

They tried to burn the whole industry down, including me. I spent years making a 5e compatible game that was less than a year away from release when the OGL debacle happened, and I lost not only years of work, and my entire business, but I lost any faith in their ability to keep any promise they might make in the future. I trusted them a second time after the 4e GSL tried to kill the OGL, it is my failure alone that I trusted them again.

sorry to hear that, but could you not use the CC version instead? Heck, you could even still use the OGL, it never was rescinded.

Whatever stunt they pull in the future will be more likely to not update the SRD and turn incompatible than try to revoke the OGL again, so your game would be safe.

This seems to be mostly a matter of your lost trust rather than any legal change. Not saying that is not important, just wondering whether there is anything that can be salvaged

 

[ngenius]

There is Studio Agate's Fateforge, a complete 5e D&D Core Book series outside WoTC, but probably because it is a French company, it is difficult to import those English language books into the USA, the biggest market.

The two core books of Fateforge were free on DrivethruRPG.

But maybe not in the 5e game anymore, since the new Kickstarter about King Author from Studio Agate seems to have skipped 5e too.