Double Weapons

Actually I think you are still wrong.

Well no, I'm not :)

I believe double weapons are special exceptions to the two-handed weapons rule.

No, they're not - if they were, it would say so.

It's clearer in the 3E wording, because the default two-bladed sword, for example, was a Large weapon. In 3.5, they've deliberately chosen to have no "default sizes" - a weapon can be sized appropriately for any size creature - so they don't give a specific example.

But the specific example does appear in 3E :

"A creature using a double weapon in one hand, such as an ogre using a two-bladed sword, can't use it as a double weapon."

A human can't use a standard-sized two-bladed sword in one hand. An ogre can... just not as a double-weapon (and in 3.5, he takes a -2 penalty for inappropriate-sized weapon).

-Hyp.
 

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Well, this is 3.5 and it doesn't state anything that contradicts my assumption. In fact the rules support my position.

Your position is held only by the assumption that "things are as they used to be."

I guess thing is another question that has to be cleared up by the Sage.
 

Well, this is 3.5 and it doesn't state anything that contradicts my assumption.

Yes, it does.

In fact the rules support my position.

No, they don't.

Your position is held only by the assumption that "things are as they used to be."

No, it isn't.

It's phrased more explicitly in 3.0, because of some of the assumptions the 3.0 PHB makes about the default size of weapons. Those assumptions are not valid in 3.5 any more, so you need to look at the rules in several places.

I'll show you.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

Two-Handed Melee Weapons
Quarterstaff5
Axe, orc double5
Flail, dire5
Hammer, gnome hooked5
Sword, two-bladed5
Urgrosh, dwarven5

5 Double weapon

Quarterstaff: A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

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So. A quarterstaff is a two-handed weapon. A two-handed weapon requires two hands to wield effectively - it cannot be used in one hand. A creature one size larger treats a quarterstaff as a one-handed weapon - it can be used in one hand, but with a -2 penalty. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can't use it as a double weapon.

By the 3.5 rules, a Medium creature cannot wield a Medium quarterstaff in one hand. It is a two-handed weapon. It says so in the table. There's nothing in the weapon description to override that.

A Large creature can wield it in one hand. If he does, he cannot use it as a double weapon. That's what the line in the weapon description means.

It's there to prevent a first level character using a Small quarterstaff in each hand and using both as a double weapon to get four attacks a round. It's not there to say that a human can use a Medium quarterstaff in one hand.

The rules contradict your assumption. They do not support your position. A Sage response is not required.

-Hyp.
 

Well, I think I will go with the double weapon, as I don't mind the disad of not finding my weapon as loot etc too much.
It is a homebrew Campaign, and I am playing an Orc. The weapon is a Battle Axe/Warhammer. A double axe with a hammer head instead of the second head. I have the 'familiarity' already, it replacing the double axe in this tribe's arsenal, so I'll give it a try.
I'm sure that this debate will rage on (hopefully hashing out the bugs), and thanks for the opinions/help guys and gals and...er, Smurfs.

BTW Hypersmurf, where did you get that keen Yellow Font?
I didn't see it in the options, and I'm a yellow fanatic. I must have it!

-Uriel
 


AGGEMAM said:
No. You haven't proven anything but my point there.
I don't see how you can say that. Unless there's some exception to two-handed weapons needing two hands to wield that hasn't been posted yet, a double weapon of the appropriate size can't be used in one hand (barring the non-core Monkey Grip).
 

Uriel_fire_of_Heaven said:
My Question is this...is there any Advantage over just using two weapons? You still need the two weapon feat, same str mods (full/half for off-hand). AND you need to spend a feat on Exotic (unless racial familiarity or similar). It doesn't seem worth it, really.
Well, one advantage that hasn't been mentioned is higher base damage. A double weapon counts as a single weapon for WS & GWS, so you get the benefits for both ends while the offhand end counts as light for TWF purposes. You can get the same benefit by wielding 2 light weapons, but you usually have to sacrifice some base weapon damage to do so. For example, a human with TWF & WF/WS: Short Sword can wield 2 short swords at -2/-2 (effectively -1/-1 with WF) to hit, but only gets 1d6 damage (+x1/x.5 STR bonus +2) on each. A two-bladed sword wielder with the same feat progression (& Exotic Weapon: Two-Bladed Sword) would have base damage of 1d8. So for the cost of an exotic weapon proficiency the double weapon wielder gains an average +1 to damage over the dual-wielder in addition to any other benefits that accrue.
 


BTW Hypersmurf, where did you get that keen Yellow Font?
I didn't see it in the options, and I'm a yellow fanatic. I must have it!

Well, you know when you use the dropdown list, it produces an EZCode like [COLOR=darkblue]this[/COLOR]?

Just manually replace the "darkblue" with "yellow", and you're good to go...

-Hyp.
 

No. You haven't proven anything but my point there.

Oh, for...

Last point, before I wash my hands of you.

It is your contention that, despite a quarterstaff being clearly labelled a "two-handed weapon", that the sentence "a creature using a quarterstaff in one hand cannot use it as a double-weapon" overrides the weapon sizing rules, yes? And therefore a creature can use it in one hand, even though a two-handed weapon cannot be used in one hand?

And yet I see no provision or exclusion for size... and therefore by your logic, a grig (Tiny), faced with a Cloud Giant's quarterstaff (Huge), who could not possibly use it in two hands, can nevertheless use it in one hand, since "a creature using a quarterstaff in one hand cannot use it as a double-weapon".

Right?

If not, where have I gone wrong, using Aggemam-logic?

-Hyp.
 
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