Double Weapons
- Thread starter Uriel
- Start date
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Good grief.
-Hyp.
AGGEMAM
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
I might say the same but I'm not so insecure that I need to feel that I'm right all the time. I'm very sure that I am right here. And I'll let the errata speak for me. Should it turn out that I am wrong, then they (WOTC) should definately try to write better books.
And I can't be the only one that actually feels 3E5 is even more poorly written than the original 3E.
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Bauglir
First Post
I don't understand why you're so sure you're right though?
Can you post a rule or sequence of rules that supports your position? (i.e. that a medium sized creature can wield a medium sized double weapon one-handed)
To me HS's position seems crystal clear
I do however at least partially agree on this point. Changes (like the weapon size changes) seemed needless and overly complex.
Of course other areas (like the jump skill) are much improved. I think my ideal game is somewhere between the two.. (although I'll probably end up just playing vanilla 3.5 as it makes life easier if we all use the same system
)
Can you post a rule or sequence of rules that supports your position? (i.e. that a medium sized creature can wield a medium sized double weapon one-handed)
To me HS's position seems crystal clear
I do however at least partially agree on this point. Changes (like the weapon size changes) seemed needless and overly complex.
Of course other areas (like the jump skill) are much improved. I think my ideal game is somewhere between the two.. (although I'll probably end up just playing vanilla 3.5 as it makes life easier if we all use the same system
)
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AGGEMAM
First Post
It's fairly simple. If they had meant a creature of a different size category capable of using it one-handed as opposed to you just being able to use it one-handed with a weapon sized to fit you, they would/should have written it differently.
And remember that this is not the only area where double weapons differ from standard two-handed weapons.
Also the above stated rule is totally pointless for different sized creatures because a double weapon fuctions as it does because of it being treated as two weapons.
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
I'm going to stat up a new magic item.
Rock of Divine Majesty
This granite boulder weighs one thousand pounds. A creature who picks up the Rock and holds it aloft receives a +5 sacred bonus to all saving throws. If the creature holds the Rock in one hand while doing so, he also receives a +5 sacred bonus to Intimidate checks.
-----
Now, there is a rule for what happens if a creature picks up the Rock. That doesn't mean that a halfling with a Str of 8 can do so! A Small creature needs a Str of 29 to hold a thousand pounds over his head; a Medium creature 28; a Large creature 22.
The mere existence of a rule to cover what happens if someone does lift the Rock doesn't automatically mean that it's possible for everyone to do it.
There is a rule for what happens if you wield a double weapon in one hand. But that doesn't change the fact that a Medium character cannot wield a Medium two-handed weapon in one hand. Neither can a Small character, or a Tiny character, or a Gargantuan character. A Large character can, and a Huge character can, so the rule needs to exist to explain what happens if they try.
-Hyp.
Rock of Divine Majesty
This granite boulder weighs one thousand pounds. A creature who picks up the Rock and holds it aloft receives a +5 sacred bonus to all saving throws. If the creature holds the Rock in one hand while doing so, he also receives a +5 sacred bonus to Intimidate checks.
-----
Now, there is a rule for what happens if a creature picks up the Rock. That doesn't mean that a halfling with a Str of 8 can do so! A Small creature needs a Str of 29 to hold a thousand pounds over his head; a Medium creature 28; a Large creature 22.
The mere existence of a rule to cover what happens if someone does lift the Rock doesn't automatically mean that it's possible for everyone to do it.
There is a rule for what happens if you wield a double weapon in one hand. But that doesn't change the fact that a Medium character cannot wield a Medium two-handed weapon in one hand. Neither can a Small character, or a Tiny character, or a Gargantuan character. A Large character can, and a Huge character can, so the rule needs to exist to explain what happens if they try.
-Hyp.
Bauglir
First Post
That's the part I don't see. How do you conclude from that statement alone that a medium creature can wield a double-weapon one-handed? It doesn't mention creature/weapon size at all.
And since it doesn't refer to creature/weapon size surely we must look elsewhere in the rules to define the case where a double-weapon can be wielded one-handed?
The various rules that Mr Smurf has provided in that lovely shade of yellow point to two-handed weapons (double weapons classed as two-handed) only being wieldable one-handed by a creature a size category larger than the weapon; hence his contention (which I share) that the text you quote refers to this case.
On the other hand perhaps it was meant the way you read it, and it was just very badly worded. In any case I doubt it will see errata, as it has a negligible effect on game balance. By that same token any way you were to rule it if it ever came up would not have a great impact on the game. (Which is why my own inclination is to allow it by default - options not restrictions!)
As an aside (not that I would allow it - this WOULD be imbalancing!) can someone find some rules to say that a creature does NOT get 1.5x str bonus to damage on both ends of a double weapon?
After all, this passage only refers to attack penalties, and even if you are fighting 'as if fighting with two weapons' this does not preclude the fact that you are in fact fighting with a 2-handed weapon..
And since it doesn't refer to creature/weapon size surely we must look elsewhere in the rules to define the case where a double-weapon can be wielded one-handed?
The various rules that Mr Smurf has provided in that lovely shade of yellow point to two-handed weapons (double weapons classed as two-handed) only being wieldable one-handed by a creature a size category larger than the weapon; hence his contention (which I share) that the text you quote refers to this case.
On the other hand perhaps it was meant the way you read it, and it was just very badly worded. In any case I doubt it will see errata, as it has a negligible effect on game balance. By that same token any way you were to rule it if it ever came up would not have a great impact on the game. (Which is why my own inclination is to allow it by default - options not restrictions!)
As an aside (not that I would allow it - this WOULD be imbalancing!) can someone find some rules to say that a creature does NOT get 1.5x str bonus to damage on both ends of a double weapon?
After all, this passage only refers to attack penalties, and even if you are fighting 'as if fighting with two weapons' this does not preclude the fact that you are in fact fighting with a 2-handed weapon..
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Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Yeah - the 3.0 Main FAQ.
The wording in 3.0 was functionally identical, and the FAQ clarified that "as if fighting with a one-handed weapon and a light weapon" meant exactly that.
x1 on the primary end, x0.5 on the off-end, and no double Power Attack damage.
-Hyp.
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