[DRAGON #305] F-bomb dropped, Doc M fascinated.

[Kilmore]

For better or for worse, modern languages fluctuate over time. I'd imagine reading literature from today a thousand years from now would not be too dissimilar from reading what literature there was from 1000 AD.

Today in our world of mass media, children speak a language that leaves many of their grandparents bewildered. Meanings and usages of words have changed. Some have dropped off the map, others have replaced them.

As the more powerful words in our vocabulary, the usage of profanity has changed more than most any other facet of our language, especially due to the media's need for "powerful" dialogue.

So far, I have seen little orginized resistance to this trend, so I think modern vulgarity is going to lose it's punch and be more generally accepted, to be replaced with a new vulgarity. Already, I see the more "sanitized" medical terminology being misused as to be vulgar. CrazyMage is probably right. We may be needing Carlin's List 2.0 before too long.

So what do I think about the Dragon "pushing the boundaries"? Like most issues I think about, I am torn. It is good for them to have standards a cut above the norm, but time moves on...

Shucky-dangit! I wanted to keep it short and eloquent!

 

[Samnell]

I'm not quite certain of what your saying. Is the F word no big deal or is it important, so important that the word must be in there to maintain "artistic integrity."

If its commonplace it shouldn't be a big deal to replace it. If its important, its important because of its vulgar qualities. I'm not sure if both can exist at the same time.

I'm suggesting that the aversion to it, especially in light of the fact that people who object to it use euphemisms we all know mean the same thing and express the intent to use the f-word, do not have a reasonable objection to its use. It's just a word for an entirely natural act, for goodness sakes. None of these word tabboos make any sense to me. We don't generally have them for things that might actually be hurtful (a racial slur, for example) but we do have them when it comes to our bodies.

Here is another thing I don't understand. I'm no underwear model, but when did our bodies become dirty things we're afraid to talk about and must be hidden from children? This seems like a rather unhealthy thing to be hung up on. Surely openness would gain more than the tabboo does.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

Crystal!

Ok Eric, you've made it clear.

My point was if you speak it during your day, read it in your favorite authors books, why not write it on a board. If it's socially acceptable, as it appears to be, then why not?

From my point of view, ENWorld's taking a higher moral ground where it's members can swear in life, read it in books but go to ENWorld and NO, that's inviolate.

I guess It'll still be a mystery to me.

Son of Thunder

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Crystal!

If it's socially acceptable, as it appears to be, then why not?

You must live an interesting life- I would be fired if I used such language in the course of my day.

SD

 

[Samnell]

Samnell: AMEN.

Samnell takes a small bow.

 

[barsoomcore]

What you're ignoring here is that new vulgar words will arise to take their place. One doesn't remove the whole concept of offensive words; languages just change which words are offensive.

I'm not sure you can make this case carry much weight.

Added by Kilmore
As the more powerful words in our vocabulary, the usage of profanity has changed more than most any other facet of our language, especially due to the media's need for "powerful" dialogue.

First off, the curse words of the English language have been "naughty" words for centuries. The F, S, C, A and other words have been with us since Chaucer at least. Most of them are directly traceable back to Anglo-Saxon and the Indo-European root. They have been used for comic effect, for shock value, for centuries. I can't, off the top of my head, think of any curse words of particularly recent vintage.

Secondly, the fact is that some languages do not have the concept of swear words. There are RUDE words, to be sure, but they are rude because they are insulting, not because they possess some magic property.

Third, fluctuations over the past century as to what sorts of language is acceptable has more to do with the social upheavals of the World Wars than media efforts. World War II marked in many ways a high point in foul language in English, giving us SNAFU, RTFM and FUBAR.

So it is by no means a given that there will ALWAYS be curse words, nor is it a given that languages change which words become curse words. And while usage may relax or tighten, the issue is always to consider the local conditions -- what do the people around you feel is appropriate and how important is it to you to go beyond what they think?

Note that I'm not referring to, for example, ethnic slurs, which are simply insults. F--- isn't an insult. It's a curse word. It possesses a magic property of vulgarity that its meaning doesn't contain -- the vulgarity only emerges when the word itself is presented. It can be safely referred to (as I just did) but it cannot be displayed.

This is deeply irrational.

That's not to say that Dragon should be printing these words, nor that the moderators here should allow them. I don't care if Dragon does or not, and I appreciate the environment here at ENWorld and consider the careful moderation and strict rules of conduct to contribute to that.

 

[jester47]

I'm suggesting that the aversion to it, especially in light of the fact that people who object to it use euphemisms we all know mean the same thing and express the intent to use the f-word, do not have a reasonable objection to its use. It's just a word for an entirely natural act, for goodness sakes. None of these word tabboos make any sense to me. We don't generally have them for things that might actually be hurtful (a racial slur, for example) but we do have them when it comes to our bodies.

"f--- you" or "f--- off" or f---ing s---" are all misuses of the word. Think about it. Its like saying "twist you!"

yeah run off works as a construction but thats because it is a moving verb. f--- is not.

When I think about the actual image of what "f--- off" really means, I die laughing. "f--- away from here" is the connotation, even if the meaning is "to jhell with you" Its hysterical in that such an act would require lots of movement away from you.

The word is not a moving verb and should not be used that way.

It should be used as a normal verb if used at all.
Here is an example of the Gerundive:

"my roomates were f------ loudly all night and I couldn't get any sleep."


Aaron.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Here is another thing I don't understand. I'm no underwear model, but when did our bodies become dirty things we're afraid to talk about and must be hidden from children?

I don't understand why people can't just let children be children- before forcing them deal with the many issues of the world.

Yes, it is up to the parents, but it is a shame parents need to censor Dragon magazine from their children. (See, I brought it back on topic, heh.)

SD

 

[CrazyMage]

Henry: Very well put. I've tried elsewhere to express that idea, but did not do as well as you; maybe I just need more

Mercule: Again, some great points. Thank you. I agree with you on the difference of blasphemy vs. vulgarity, and why each is undesirable.

Combining the topic of books and substitutes for vulgarities, check out Norman Mailer's The Naked and the Dead. Many, many, many uses of the word "fug" for a word required for the topic (WWII soldiers in the Pacific; I know they don't talk like clergymen) but not allowed editorially, unless they've changed something with a recent reprinting.

As someone else pointed out, the "No profanity" rule has helped to keep this discussion going in a profitable way. Thanks again mods.

 

[Buttercup]

Re: Re: I Have A Question

I had never heard much about GRR Martin until a few months ago. I had no impetus to read his works, and after such a big deal everyone is making about how important profanity is to preserving the thrust of his work, I wonder if I should spend the effort.

Henry, I am a pretty harsh critic of contemporary fantasy fiction. But GRRM's Song of Ice & Fire is among the best fantasy that I have ever read. Some of his earlier work is not so good, IMO. But if you were to pick up Game of Thrones, I don't think you would be sorry. Well, you might be sorry about calling in sick so you could stay home to finish it, but not sorry you read it.