Dragon abilities

[davidnoal]

I am planning a game for the day after Christmas. I'd like the party to face a young red dragon, and I am designing the scenario around that. On the day of that game the party I run for will range in level from 2nd to 4th level, so I expect facing a 7th level solo will be a very tough encounter for them.

I've found (for my group, at least) that easy encounters tend to be far too easy and standard encounters end too quickly, with little risk to them. Since we play infrequently, I want the majority of battles to be tough. So, I always go above the normal range of XP budget for encounters.

(Example, I ran the PCs (levels in parens): ranger (1), rogue (3), rogue (2), cleric (3), fighter (3) vs. 1 each of 4 Deathlock Wight, 3 Skeleton, 3 Gravehound in the first encounter [475 xp total] and then 2x Harpy (6), 1 Elf (2) and 1 Grey Wolf (2) in the second [750 xp total]. One PC died in the second encounter, and the first they were easily able to overcome.)

How do the dragons stack up in 4E? This will be my first shot running one, and I'd like some impressions from folks who have used them in game.

What is the minimum party I could pit against a young red? I may have as few as three 4th level PCs that day or as many as three 4th level PCs, two at 3rd and one at 2nd level. Is the young red too much for that group? How would you adjust the stats to make the battle possible (but obviously still really really difficult)?

 

[Ibixat]

I think the dragon would tear them a new one.

The dragon if run by the tactics in the MM has the potential in the first round to do

5-16 breath aoe, stun everyone, and 8-18 damage claw attacks 4 times total.

There is a good chance if played hard the dragon will take out a PC in the second round, maybe even 2 PC's if they are level 4 or less due to their low HP.

 

[Mengu]

The lower level characters will have an extremely difficult time, hitting the defenses of a level 7 soldier. When 75+% of their attacks are missing, it will take a long time to chew through the 300+ HP's of the young red. And the longer the combat takes, the more times the dragon will get to breath on them.

I think your minimum party size should be five level 4 characters.

If you only have 3 4th level characters, chop off 1 from all the dragons defenses, attack bonuses, damage, and knock off 40% of its hitpoints.

Just add 10% more of its hitpoints back in for every PC you add that's below level 4.

I think a Young Purple Dragon might be a more appropriate challenge. Red dragons are quite nasty, especially if you don't have a full party for some built in redundancy when things go bad.

 

[davidnoal]

The lower level characters will have an extremely difficult time, hitting the defenses of a level 7 soldier. When 75+% of their attacks are missing, it will take a long time to chew through the 300+ HP's of the young red. And the longer the combat takes, the more times the dragon will get to breath on them.

I think your minimum party size should be five level 4 characters.

If you only have 3 4th level characters, chop off 1 from all the dragons defenses, attack bonuses, damage, and knock off 40% of its hitpoints.

Just add 10% more of its hitpoints back in for every PC you add that's below level 4.

I think a Young Purple Dragon might be a more appropriate challenge. Red dragons are quite nasty, especially if you don't have a full party for some built in redundancy when things go bad.

Thank you for the advice. This is the sort of thing I was looking for.

It sounds to me like you're suggesting I make the young red approximate a level 6 elite, instead of the normal 7th level solo. Is that about what you intend?

What if I were to grant the party a few one shot magic items to boost one or more of hit rolls, damage, or defenses? Do you think that might also work? What would be your recommendation there?

 

[Mengu]

It sounds to me like you're suggesting I make the young red approximate a level 6 elite, instead of the normal 7th level solo. Is that about what you intend?

Basically. Use a level 6 Elite if the party size is around 3. Use a level 6 solo if the party size is around 5. Use something in between for the in between cases. This is assuming you intend to use a Soldier. A level 7 Solo Skirmisher or Lurker, while still quite challenging might be more managale than a level 7 Solo Soldier for a lower level party. It can depend on party composition too of course.

 

[scarik]

Just level the Red down to 5 as per the DMG guidlines.

-2 to Attacks, all Defenses and Skills, -1 to damage.
-64hp since its Solo Soldier in Heroic tier (8 per level x 4 for Solo)

That should be much less killy, a 7th level Soldier will just laugh off the efforts of a level 2 character.

 

[MrBeens]

Your choice of monsters is also hampered by having a level disparity of 2 whole levels in your party. The game mechanics are really geared to the party all being the same level.

Your level 2 guys are going to be 1 or 2 points less to hit, 1 or 2 less on all defenses, have 1 less encounter power, 1 less feat, 2 levels worth of hit points less, and 2 levels worth of magic items less (which can put them further away in the to hit and defenses stakes).

Monsters appropiate for your level 4s will eat the 2s up, and monsters appropiate for your level 2s will be much less of a threat to your 4s.

 

[davidnoal]

Your choice of monsters is also hampered by having a level disparity of 2 whole levels in your party. The game mechanics are really geared to the party all being the same level.

Your level 2 guys are going to be 1 or 2 points less to hit, 1 or 2 less on all defenses, have 1 less encounter power, 1 less feat, 2 levels worth of hit points less, and 2 levels worth of magic items less (which can put them further away in the to hit and defenses stakes).

Monsters appropiate for your level 4s will eat the 2s up, and monsters appropiate for your level 2s will be much less of a threat to your 4s.

This doesn't bother me. I just haven't counted the real low level guys when planning encounters. Since they represent much less a threat, I don't typically want to target them [first] using the monsters, unless they get in the way, or do something stupid. Sometimes I throw in one or more lower level monsters or some minions to even things out a bit.

Thus far it hasn't been an issue, really. If the low levelers die first, I don't mind.

But against this dragon, I don't want to present the party with a no-win situation. That isn't the goal of the encounter. If some of them die, that's fine, but I don't want to purposefully plan a TPK.

 

[DracoSuave]

It doesn't matter if it bothers you or not... if the party members are trivial then you're designing an adventure for 3 level 3 characters.

And how did such a level disparity come about anyways?

 

[TheGogmagog]

I'd call the group equal to 4 level 3's. One level (especially 2-3) isn't going to make that much difference as to not count him at all.
Due to some players regularly missing and others that are always there; We ended up with a spread from 5th to 8th. I didn't notice that much disparity. Our fighter and wizard were those behind. This group should be fine id the ranger keeps his distance. You could consider pre-leveling him to 2nd but keep his exp the same if you need.

That aside, I'd agree with de-leveling the dragon two levels as suggested above. Only one and I'd bet you get a TPK.