Dragon Disciple: "No," says Sage

[kreynolds]

Of course, immediately after I posted it I then saw a post where you were helpful. Seems you aren't always nasty, just I only remembered the nasty ones.

Some people do perceive me as being nasty. But in truth, I'm just impatient, thus I sound nasty. Though I can't blame you for only remembering my nasty posts. Some people remember the bad times more than the good. Actually, I do that. But hey, nobody's perfect.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

With the sages ruling I think the DD is fairly balanced. +8 str over 10 levels,+ natural weapons, natural armor, possible natural flight, a breath weapon, invulnerability to an element, eventually decent HP, can't remember the saves,, and decent BAB. The BAB +the str+the large size - to hit =AB+10. You give the DD the size bonuses to str, and that becomes +16 to str yeah that's a good idea. 1/2 orc sorc 1/barbarian 5/DD10/ frenzied berserker 4 20 str at start,+5 for levels +6 for magic, +3 from a book,+4 rage,+6 frenzie,+16 for DDlevels= 60 oh and without the rage and frenzie he still has a 50 str, yeah that's what I want in my campaigns.

 

[blickish]

maybe the problem lies in the PrC

I think that the main problem lies in the fact that this is basically a Template disguised as a Prc. The PrC, as written, probably should get all the benefits of enlargement. However, that would make this somewhat unbalanced (as it's not really a PrC). This is why the Sage is neutering it. IMHO

 

[nharwell]

With the sages ruling I think the DD is fairly balanced. +8 str over 10 levels,+ natural weapons, natural armor, possible natural flight, a breath weapon, invulnerability to an element, eventually decent HP, can't remember the saves,, and decent BAB. The BAB +the str+the large size - to hit =AB+10. You give the DD the size bonuses to str, and that becomes +16 to str yeah that's a good idea. 1/2 orc sorc 1/barbarian 5/DD10/ frenzied berserker 4 20 str at start,+5 for levels +6 for magic, +3 from a book,+4 rage,+6 frenzie,+16 for DDlevels= 60 oh and without the rage and frenzie he still has a 50 str, yeah that's what I want in my campaigns.

Out of curiosity, have you actually seen one played? I've played a DD and I have a player running one in my current campaign. In my experience, the class is extremely weak unless you min-max the strength aspect (something like Half-Orc Sor1/Bbn5, then go DD).

However, while I disagree with the sage's ruling for logic reasons, giving the full benefits from enlargement would not help -- all it does is to make the class more "unbalanced." The extra Strength makes it more combat-oriented, and thus not much better for a straight sorceror but even more prone to abuse.

 

[nharwell]

Out of curiousity, what did you replace it with?

My alterations to the Dragon Disciple:

Requirements: the ability to cast arcane spells of at least 3rd level without preparation.

at 5th level: no Enlargement
at 9th level: Wings, regardless of size

I also dropped the bonus spells and instead give +1 level of spell progression at every odd level (1,3,5,7,9).

These changes make the class much better for a straight sorceror and less likely to be abused. It irked me that one of the only two "official" PrCs designed for the sorceror was best suited to fighter-types, so I made these changes with no noticeable damage to game balance -- and the DD player in game has been quite happy since.

 

[Crothian]

Adding in actual spell advancementy is probably the way to go. Every odd level seems about right.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Out of curiosity, have you actually seen one played? I've played a DD and I have a player running one in my current campaign. In my experience, the class is extremely weak unless you min-max the strength aspect (something like Half-Orc Sor1/Bbn5, then go DD).

However, while I disagree with the sage's ruling for logic reasons, giving the full benefits from enlargement would not help -- all it does is to make the class more "unbalanced." The extra Strength makes it more combat-oriented, and thus not much better for a straight sorceror but even more prone to abuse.

I've never seen a sorcerer focused one played. The only DD I saw played was one focussed on combat. In this case it was a dwarf sor 1/bar1/fighter4+/DD10. He was fairly sick wielding a huge spiked chain doing 2d6+magic+str+specialization at I think it was 15' reach, and quick drawing/rapid shooting big hand axes doing 1d8+str+magic+point blank+specializaiton . I honestly think this and the bladesinger both would of been better placed in sword and fist. Both make good fighter prestige classes but crappy wiz/sor prestige classes. (even without the incredibly bent errata version of the bladesinger)

 

[gamecat]

[sarcasm]
*group hug* I enjoy D&D almost as much as flower arranging! Let's not be mean okay? We don't anybody's sensitive feelings hurt.
[/sarcasm]

 

[Archer]

Without the enlargement bonuses DD is a weak class. You lose 3 bab, 8 hps and 5 feats or gain 2 bab and 22 hp at the cost of 10 levels of spell progression depending on how you look at it. You get 8 str which makes up for the BAB loss if you count the required level of sorceror and +2 con which makes up for the hp loss more or less. Either way you are out 5 (6 counting the lost feat for 1 level of sorceror) feats or 10 levels of spell progression with nothing to show for it. The enlargement bonus is the only thing that can come close. You get +10 net to physical stats which balances out the BAB loss and the lost point for being larger and you get some natural armor to cancel out the size penalty and dex loss. You come out ahead with +4 attack bonus, +2 hp/level and +8 damage. That's what you lost 6 feats to get. (and delayed your 4th iterative attack to 20th level) The breath weapon is a joke when you get to 15th level and so is natural flight. 6 feats would get you focus, specialization, improved critical, two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting and greater two weapon fighting. Use two shortswords and you have double the attacks per round of a DD at twice the threat range with almost as good attack bonus (-1 net for using 2 weapons) and almost as much damage (2 less)

At 5th level of DD you get +0 BAB, no increase to your saves and only +1 natural armor and 1 more spell per day. The size bonuses nicely improve the otherwise dead level.

Trading 6 feats for 5 levels of spell progression isn't very impressive as fix to loss of enlargement bonuses.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Sure you lose 5 or 6 feats. But saying natural weapons, flight, natural armor,a once a day breath weapon, and immunity to an element is nothing is far from the truth. And large size kicks butt. Reach + combat reflexes allows you to stomp things fairly well, and who wouldn't take combat reflexes if you have natural reach. Also large size allows you to cary a ton more, I think your lifting/carrying capacity is now x4.

And natural flight a joke, you have got to be kidding. Flight is one fo the most powerful tactical advantages you can have in the game. And to have it naturally, and not magic item or spell dependent is a huge advantage. The loss of 10 spell levels would be a big loss if this were a spellcasting oriented prestige class. But it isn't this is a fighter prestige class in the wrong book, just like the blade singer.