Dragon Disciple questions

[MeepoTheMighty]

Consider the following character:

Monk 8/Sorcerer 2/Dragon Disciple 10

At 20th level, this character has a BAB of +14/+9/+4, or +13/+13/+8/+3 when using flurry of blows.

How do the claw and bite attacks from the dragon disciple factor in?

At 2nd level, a dragon disciple gains claw and bite attacks if he does not already have them. Use the values below or the disciple’s base claw and bite damage values, whichever are greater.

(Medium size gives claw at 1d4, bite at 1d6)

A dragon disciple is considered proficient with these attacks. When making a full attack, a dragon disciple uses his full base attack bonus with his bite attack but takes a –5 penalty on claw attacks. The Multiattack feat reduces this penalty to only –2.

Does he get those attacks in addition to his normal unarmed attacks? Instead of them? Could he flurry with a claw/claw/bite routine? Which attacks would take the -5 penalty?

My guess is that the character would get normal, iterative unarmed attacks, and then a bite attack at -5. Is that correct?

 

[Tetujin]

At least from my understanding natural attacks are seprate from unarmed attacks, so they do not gain the benifit of the monk abilities.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The only rulings which I have seen that actually MAKE SENSE for the whole "combining natural and weapon attacks" are those published in the dragon magazine which contained saurials. They presented a number of different ways that a creature could combine such attacks:

1. Make your natural attacks as listed, followed by a weapon attack at your highest listed bonus -5.
2. Make a normal set of weapon attacks (ie - +20/+15/+10/+5), followed by each of your natural attacks at 5 below your highest attack bonus, 2 below if you have multiattack.

This doesn't entirely work with a monk using his unarmed strike though - because supposedly he's ALREADY USING HIS WHOLE BODY TO ATTACK. So any natural weapons are already factored in (or something).

So - Either your monk can attack with
14/9/4, using monk damage
or
13/13/8/3, using monk damage
or
14/9/9, using bite/claw damage

I'd look into convincing your DM to say that a normal monk wouldn't be using a bite attack, and allowing you to tack that onto the end of a normal attack or flurry at -5, which would give you
14/9/9/4 - monk/monk/bite/monk
or
13/13/8/8/3 - monk/monk/monk/bite/monk

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I'd look into convincing your DM to say that a normal monk wouldn't be using a bite attack, and allowing you to tack that onto the end of a normal attack or flurry at -5, which would give you
14/9/9/4 - monk/monk/bite/monk
or
13/13/8/8/3 - monk/monk/monk/bite/monk

That's sort of the way I'm thinking it should be too. Originally, I thought it should be:
14/9/9/9/9/4 - monk/monk/bite/claw/claw/monk
or
13/13/8/8/8/8/3 - monk/monk/monk/bite/claw/claw/monk

but that just seems excessive.

I think your way is probably correct.

 

[Korak]

That's sort of the way I'm thinking it should be too. Originally, I thought it should be:
14/9/9/9/9/4 - monk/monk/bite/claw/claw/monk
or
13/13/8/8/8/8/3 - monk/monk/monk/bite/claw/claw/monk

but that just seems excessive.

I think your way is probably correct.

You can flurry at 13/13/8/3 and get no natural attacks (prohibited by flurry rules)

or, you can do unarmed strikes at 14/9/4 and bite at 9 and two claws at 9

 

[Pax]

I've always preerred to simply treat a monk as one size larger, for purposes ofunarmed damage, if they have natural weapons. Much simpler, much more elegant. IMO, anyway.

 

[Darklone]

I've always preerred to simply treat a monk as one size larger, for purposes ofunarmed damage, if they have natural weapons. Much simpler, much more elegant. IMO, anyway.

And makes much more sense .... YMMV

 

[andargor]

You can flurry at 13/13/8/3 and get no natural attacks (prohibited by flurry rules)

You mean this phrase means that natural weapons do not count as unarmed strikes for flurry?

When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham).

I beg to differ, unless you have another reference. Take a look at Magic Fang.

Does he get those attacks in addition to his normal unarmed attacks? Instead of them? Could he flurry with a claw/claw/bite routine? Which attacks would take the -5 penalty?

Claw is the primary weapon of a half-dragon.

Andargor

 

[Korak]

You mean this phrase means that natural weapons do not count as unarmed strikes for flurry?
Andargor

Correct. Unarmed strikes != Natural Weapons.

Key differences:

1. you can make iterative attacks with unarmed strikes, but not with natural weapons

2. unarmed strikes draw AOOs by default (w/o improved unarmed strike feat), but natural weapons do not

3. as a monk, unarmed strike damage is based on monk class level and size, but natural weapons have a set damage based on one of several classes (ie claws vs bites) and the size of the creature.

4. all monk unarmed strikes count as light weapons and get full strength bonus, but natural weapons are not light weapons so they can benefit from power attack. also, some natural weapons can be primary attacks with full strength bonus, while others are secondary natural attacks that get only half strength... and most creatures with only a single natural attack get 1.5 strength bonus (as if a two handed weapon).

So, natural weapons are distinct and separate from unarmed strikes. The former are not allowed as part of a flurry of blows. However, the two may be combined in a normal full attack in the same way that a troll fighter can make iterative attacks with a longsword along with a claw attack as a secondary natural attack at -5 from his base attack bonus (+appropriate mods).

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Claw is the primary weapon of a half-dragon.

But bite is the primary weapon of a dragon disciple.