Dragon Editorial: Fearless

[hong]

First, never believe everything a designer tells you. Normally 50% of it is true, at best 75%

105% of statistics are made up. Trust me, I'm a statistician.

Second, when someone talks great lengths about what crazy stunts he can pull of and how easy it is to survive them a small sentence that it is still dangerous will not help much.

What on earth is this supposed to mean?

 

[Blue]

1. There can be no "real risk" to a character, because a character is a flight of fancy with no independent existence and nothing at stake. Perception of risk is everything, and that perception lies in the mind of the player, who is the one with the ability to make decisions and a stake in the outcomes for the character. Many tools are available to manipulate that perception of risk, and the crudest tool of all is "roll a save; if you fail, you die". The SECOND crudest tool of all is "make a skill check; if you fail, you die".

I feel you may be overly pedantic in dismissing the wish for "risk". Yes, the whole game is an effort of imagination, but within the framework of the story there is a place for risk. Saying that it is just a game is just playing with words - of course it's a game, but within the game we would like to encounter chances to fail, such that we get feeling of accomplishment and to make the rewards sweeter. In a good movie or book, characters get into "risky" situation. Yes, it's a form of entertainment and they will most likely survive and succeed, but not always. I remember reading George R.R. Martin and loving how there was "real" risk for the characters

2. Did you not see the line in the article where the character has died already in the game?

I did. and I also read how a group of fourth level characters took down an 11th level solo monster - one that's supposed to fight an entire party of paragon level players by itself. If that's the threat that the DM is throwing them against, only one death is vastly low.

Cheers,
=Blue(23)

 

[hong]

I feel you may be overly pedantic in dismissing the wish for "risk". Yes, the whole game is an effort of imagination, but within the framework of the story there is a place for risk. Saying that it is just a game is just playing with words - of course it's a game, but within the game we would like to encounter chances to fail, such that we get feeling of accomplishment and to make the rewards sweeter. In a good movie or book, characters get into "risky" situation. Yes, it's a form of entertainment and they will most likely survive and succeed, but not always. I remember reading George R.R. Martin and loving how there was "real" risk for the characters

The point being, there are ways to manipulate the perception of risk that go beyond just the raw mechanics.

I did. and I also read how a group of fourth level characters took down an 11th level solo monster - one that's supposed to fight an entire party of paragon level players by itself. If that's the threat that the DM is throwing them against, only one death is vastly low.

Which could also be taken as evidence that the wahoo level of this particular game was higher than that assumed for the default 4E campaign.

 

[JLXC]

Wow, just wow. First off, if the majority of you feel that your character can only be "brave" and "do daring things" if most of the danger of death is gone, your characters and your play style is simply cowardly and anti-heroic, you just don't get heroic as a concept which is no surprise to me, but saddens me none the less. My 3e games had plenty of bravado and crazy situations, and death was very possible, and when the players pulled it off they KNEW they pulled it off, the rules didn't save them, they beat the odds, it was actually dangerous and a challenge and that made it much sweeter. I'm too disgusted to go on.

The article in question makes me sad. Really.

"You can be brave because the rules support it! Because you could never play a real daring hero before 4E! Oh noes! It wasn't even possible, because you always died if you tried!"

You believe this?

 

[cwhs01]

First, never believe everything a designer tells you. Normally 50% of it is true, at best 75%

Im assuming you decided that the half-lie here is that pc's can die?

If you are second guessing and disregarding statements you don't like, then why are we even discussing it?

Its possibly we should discuss what was actually said (at least until we have the finished product in a few months), judging not by what we fear or hope 4e is.

 

[hong]

Wow, just wow. First off, if the majority of you feel that your character can only be "brave" and "do daring things" if most of the danger of death is gone, your characters and your play style is simply cowardly and anti-heroic, you just don't get heroic as a concept which is no surprise to me, but saddens me none the less. My 3e games had plenty of bravado and crazy situations, and death was very possible, and when the players pulled it off they KNEW they pulled it off, the rules didn't save them, they beat the odds, it was actually dangerous and a challenge and that made it much sweeter. I'm too disgusted to go on.

The article in question makes me sad. Really.

"You can be brave because the rules support it! Because you could never play a real daring hero before 4E! Oh noes! It wasn't even possible, because you always died if you tried!"

You believe this?

Wait, pretending to be elves is heroic now?

 

[Wulfram]

Removing the roll one and die, and reducing the fragility of level one characters, is, by and large, good. Though I do think that the occasional BBEG or special monster with save or die can be interesting, if handled correctly

Most of the rest appears bad. Genuinely stupid mistakes should be able to kill adventurers, and heedless risk taking should carry a genuine chance of disaster.

Indeed, one of the virtues of reducing the randomness in the game, by cutting save or die and boosting early game hitpoints, is that it should allow the DM to reward the sensibly cautious with a decent chance of coming out intact, while those who choose to be reckless face a real risk to match their potential glory.

 

[TwoSix]

Not to mention, swatting *30lb* Darkmantles like bugs with a shield, moving at a mere 30mph?! Cool is good and all, but it kind of loses its value if its given out for free.

Yes, because when I throw a toddler at an oncoming car, the toddler definitely doesn't bounce.

 

[JLXC]

Wait, pretending to be elves is heroic now?

Way to miss the point. Only choosing to dare because you assume you will make it is not heroic, Elf, Robot, Monkey, makes no difference. The very idea of heroism is lost on most of you it seems.

heroic

adjective
1. very imposing or impressive; surpassing the ordinary (especially in size or scale); "an epic voyage"; "of heroic proportions"; "heroic sculpture" [syn: epic]
2. relating to or characteristic of heroes of antiquity; "heroic legends"; "the heroic age"
3. having or displaying qualities appropriate for heroes; "the heroic attack on the beaches of Normandy"; "heroic explorers"
4. of behavior that is impressive and ambitious in scale or scope; "an expansive lifestyle"; "in the grand manner"; "collecting on a grand scale"; "heroic undertakings" [syn: expansive]
5. showing extreme courage; especially of actions courageously undertaken in desperation as a last resort; "made a last desperate attempt to reach the climber"; "the desperate gallantry of our naval task forces marked the turning point in the Pacific war"- G.C.Marshall; "they took heroic measures to save his life" [syn: desperate]

The main attribute of a hero is having the courage to do things that may not result in good things for you. If you don't fear the results by and large, you're not courageous, and therefore you're not a hero. The end.

 

[hong]

I thought you said you were too disgusted to go on?

Way to miss the point. Only choosing to dare because you assume you will make it is not heroic, Elf, Robot, Monkey, makes no difference. The very idea of heroism is lost on most of you it seems.

The very idea of character state of mind being separate to player state of mind is lost on you, it seems.

heroic

adjective
1. very imposing or impressive; surpassing the ordinary (especially in size or scale); "an epic voyage"; "of heroic proportions"; "heroic sculpture" [syn: epic]
2. relating to or characteristic of heroes of antiquity; "heroic legends"; "the heroic age"
3. having or displaying qualities appropriate for heroes; "the heroic attack on the beaches of Normandy"; "heroic explorers"
4. of behavior that is impressive and ambitious in scale or scope; "an expansive lifestyle"; "in the grand manner"; "collecting on a grand scale"; "heroic undertakings" [syn: expansive]
5. showing extreme courage; especially of actions courageously undertaken in desperation as a last resort; "made a last desperate attempt to reach the climber"; "the desperate gallantry of our naval task forces marked the turning point in the Pacific war"- G.C.Marshall; "they took heroic measures to save his life" [syn: desperate]

... nope, nothing about pretending to be an elf there! Not even about pretending to be a heroic elf.

The main attribute of a hero is having the courage to do things that may not result in good things for you. If you don't fear the results by and large, you're not courageous, and therefore you're not a hero. The end.

Of course I'm not a hero. It's the elf who is the hero. The end.