[Dragon] Lord, the cheese...

[John Crichton]

Re: Re: [Dragon] Lord, the cheese...

Paizo made it pretty clear during the BoVD issue fiasco that the (im)Mature aspects were going to be a standard direction of the magazine. Their past behavior has proven that to be true.

I cancelled my subscription.

It is a shame- I would like to enjoy the main periodical for my hobby.

You cancelled because of the cover art? That's something I would never do. Of course I could be reading you wrong...

Altho, the only way to say you do or don't like something is to purchase it or not, as we vote with our wallets. So, I can appreciate that. However, if the content is good who really cares about the cover? All they are doing is what every other company does to sell product to their main demographic (male teens). I would like them to put more mature covers as well or at least maybe a varient (that's a whole different arguement) here and there but I try not to judge a book by its cover.

And as for more beefcake? I wouldn't mind some well rendered guys or just some bad-ass lookin' dudes on the covers. Mix it up a bit I say. And not just for the females and the other minorities in the gaming community. Let's see them do it for variety which is really one of the game's strong points anyway.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: [Dragon] Lord, the cheese...

You cancelled because of the cover art?

I cancelled over the content of the BoVD issue and their attitude about it- which was just the last stop for me on their trend towards a Mature magazine.

If I wanted Maxim, then I would buy Maxim.

SD

 

[Celebrim]

Forget the ammount of skin shown. There is a pretty simple standard here.

Would you release a major fantasy novel with that cover?

If not, then it is not suitable for Dragon.

There was a time when the cover art for Dragon was some of the best fantasy art going. Dragon in the early '90's was the showcase for fantasy art. There was a time when peices used for Dragon Mag covers ended up becoming cover art for novels.

Dragon is going away from that standard. Heck, the art that they are putting on the cover now would get rejected on a Magic card, and the excess skin is just an example of trying to substitute marketing for quality.

 

[Vocenoctum]

While I agree that the Avalanche Covers are in general too cheesy, I don't see this cover as being anywhere near that level.

And yes, for the temptation thing, the Succubus/ Incubus is the standard tempter. If you want to complain it wasn't an Incubus, but I don't think this is anything excessive for a Succubus.

But, I remember hearing the same discussions years ago when Dragon did a cover with a scantily clad lady on some ruins or whatever. If they see a picture they like, they put it on the cover, it's not like they sent out a call for scantily clad women to see what pics they could get.
(which, I think Avalanche might do, "can you put a near naked girl in a Chinese setting?")

 

[Drkfathr1]

I have no problem with it. I think its pretty sexy, but far from pornographic or objectionable.

I don't think Dragon is being published for grade schoolers either. Its nice to encourage your kids to read and to expose them to a game that encourages creativity and intelligence, but don't decide for all of us whats "proper". I don't want child-friendly standards applied to a game that's not a children's game.

We have far too many hang-ups on sexuality in our culture.

Not trying to offend anyone or start any arguments. Just giving my opinion.

 

[Olive]

Sagan - you cancelled a magazine subscription over 2 spells and a discussion of different levels of gaming? your loss...

I've just looked through Dragon #300, and I can't imagine you cancelled it over undead templates, flesheating halflings, lower plane dragons or magic items for hags.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

but don't decide for all of us whats "proper".

and so begins the suggestion that people disliking it are trying to censor or force their beliefs on others.. right.

I would like to see the argument what this "mature" material adds to the magazine.

Sales? Our hobby is too small for such tactics to make sense.

Enriching gaming material? Profanity, questionable art, necrophilia are enriching? Ok, I guess.

It is what the market wants? That could be- I am clearly not the intended market.

For the record- Paizo can do what it wants. I am not telling them what to do. Other people can do what they want. I am not telling them what to buy. I am voicing what I am doing. If you take offense, then oh well.

But since this is a hobby I care about and a magazine I care about- I will continue to voice my concern. Feel free to ignore me.

SD

 

[hellbender]

hey hey. Cheesecake is good as long as it has strawberrys and served with four feisty old women. *growls*

But seriously, why dont we get anything? Discrimination?

I am not trying to get into a scuffle with you, but, the mob rules. If the majority of gamers are heterosexual males, then it stands to reason that there would be more scantily clad females depicted in art. That is not meant to be a slam on anyone, that is just the way that the marketing machine rolls. You don't get as many beefcake images because a minority (of people, folks) that are the mass of a target group do not rule. Is this fair? No, however, the majority speaks, and often with their money.

hellbender

 

[Janos Antero]

Would you release a major fantasy novel with that cover

They have, take a look at Sara Doughlass, a major fantasy author with a new book with two very attractive greek women on the cover. That actually prompted me to pick the book up and read it, and the inside cover was enough to sell me.

I like the Dragon covers, this issue looks to be a very beautiful piece of artwork, and I really do enjoy the sexy skimpy females look. I don't think some more variety would hurt (a few strong men, dressed or not would be nice, or a few knights, why is it no one wears armor anymore?!).

It is unfortunate that some covers may prompt an adult to keep kids from seeing the issue, but it isn't as if this is new to the hobby or specifically this game either. From topless demons in 1e, to various pictures that rival the Dragon cover in 2e (Field Nymph from MC2 anyone), this is hardly a new topic in DnD.

It reflects what has become an inherent part of the game over the past three decades. Sure, at some points the sex has been down played, but it's been up played just as often as well. I admit I'm baffled why some people act as if this is a new change that is keeping them from Dragon or other products. I can think of several 80ies Dragons with risky covers too, different art styles, but the same theme, scantily clad women. Chainmail bikinis are part of DnD, and have been for a very long time now, better to take it up at the source, i.e. deal with DnD as a whole over the issue, rather than singling out Dragon.

 

[Sagan Darkside]

Sagan -

Olive- you and I went around this mulberry bush before.

So- let me summarize: The "maturing" of the Dragon magazine has been a growing trend. It crossed my line of what I spend my money on in the BoVD issue and the attitude of the Paizo reps at the time.

Specifically-

content: the necrophilia
attitude: that they handled the BoVD section properly by sealing it off (and splattering it with blood and the "warning" on the cover).

It takes a lot to offend me.
Dragon has yet to even come close to doing so.

However- I work hard to earn my money.
I will not spend it on childish titillation.

As I already said- if I wanted that, then I would buy a product for that. I want a d&d magazine.

your loss...

Yes. It is my loss, and one I am not happy about.

SD