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D&D General Dragon Turtles
- Thread starter FR1971
- Start date
the Jester
Legend
Has it been nerfed, or is it just that pcs have grown mightier in comparison? I'll have to dig out a couple of books to compare.
FR1971
Villager
It was tougher and did more damage than a Gold Dragon.
the Jester
Legend
I just did a quick look at its stats across editions, and yeah, I'm a little disappointed in its 5e version; I mean, it's tough, but that breath weapon used to be 20d6!
toucanbuzz
No rule is inviolate
OD&D: 11 to 13 HD, 1 attack, a nasty 3/day cone of steam for its current hit points in damage (that's 11d6 to 13d6), in a day when players used d6 for hit points, and capsize. So, pretty epic because it easily could wipe your party with one attack.
Basic D&D: 30 HD (upgrade!), now has 3 physical attacks including a super nasty bite that can 1-shot PCs, super big cone of steam like before, just up to 30d6!! Noted to be one of the most powerful monsters in the game, rivaled only by the Kraken.
AD&D 1&2E: 12 to 14 HD (back to just being awesome), big but not 1-shot physical attacks, 20d6 breath weapon cloud(!) of 60x40x40' usable 3/day and edition change no longer dependent on current HP. Intelligence above average at 11-12. So, still respectable because of that awesome breath weapon which could wipe out a party, easy.
3rd: 12HD, breath weapon nerfed to 12d6 in a day when PC hit points go up big time. We do have options to advance it to a 36HD creature but by default, it's not that scary.
4th: 13HD, breath weapon down to 6d6. INT drops to average 10. Awwww. What is happening to our beloved king of the deep?
5E: 22HD (CR17), breath weapon to 15d6 and a limited cone, now has turtle tail power. Overall, though, much like many poor creatures in the MM, just a big bag of hit points and a shadow of its former party-wiping scary self. The Kraken, once compared as its equal? Now a CR22, 27 Hit Die, Legendary creature with Lair effects.
Conclusion: it's been nerfed from the early days when it could wipe your party with its breath weapon and was described as the leviathan of the deep, only rivaled by a handful of denizens, with a damn warning for the DM how dangerous it was!
Basic D&D: 30 HD (upgrade!), now has 3 physical attacks including a super nasty bite that can 1-shot PCs, super big cone of steam like before, just up to 30d6!! Noted to be one of the most powerful monsters in the game, rivaled only by the Kraken.
AD&D 1&2E: 12 to 14 HD (back to just being awesome), big but not 1-shot physical attacks, 20d6 breath weapon cloud(!) of 60x40x40' usable 3/day and edition change no longer dependent on current HP. Intelligence above average at 11-12. So, still respectable because of that awesome breath weapon which could wipe out a party, easy.
3rd: 12HD, breath weapon nerfed to 12d6 in a day when PC hit points go up big time. We do have options to advance it to a 36HD creature but by default, it's not that scary.
4th: 13HD, breath weapon down to 6d6. INT drops to average 10. Awwww. What is happening to our beloved king of the deep?
5E: 22HD (CR17), breath weapon to 15d6 and a limited cone, now has turtle tail power. Overall, though, much like many poor creatures in the MM, just a big bag of hit points and a shadow of its former party-wiping scary self. The Kraken, once compared as its equal? Now a CR22, 27 Hit Die, Legendary creature with Lair effects.
Conclusion: it's been nerfed from the early days when it could wipe your party with its breath weapon and was described as the leviathan of the deep, only rivaled by a handful of denizens, with a damn warning for the DM how dangerous it was!
Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
commandercrud
Hero
Many monsters have followed a similar path.
dave2008
Legend
For those that are interested in dragon turtles: I gave them a bit of an upgrade for 5e:
- Dragon Turtle, Adult (standard, CR 17)
- Dragon Turtle, Elder (standard, CR 21)
- Dragon Turtle, Venerable (standard CR 25)
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FR1971
Villager
Thanks! That was my conclusion. It was definitely the apex predator.
LordEntrails
Hero
I'm ok with the change, mostly. They are actually useable now. But then again, too many things are useable now. Dragons are not the awesome creatures they once were either. Especially since there are several WotC adventures (Icespire and ??) that have tier 1 characters fighting them.
