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Dragonborn in Faerun

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
Even in the Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide in the description of the Far Traveler background states:

"Almost all of the people and other folk that one might encounter along the Sword Coast or in the North have one thing in common: they live out their lives without ever traveling more than a few miles from where they were born."

My campaign is modeled on Ed Greenwood's publications first, then other Realms materials second. In 2012, the same time the 5th edition was announced, WotC also released Ed Greenwood Presents Elminster's Forgotten Realms. For a lot of the fans of the Realms this was a return to form. A book entirely of lore, with no game mechanics whatsoever, it's an overview of what life is like in the Forgotten Realms.

Yes, you could consider this a home campaign setting at this point, the published Realms having diverged more and more from the original source material, even as that source (Ed) and new material was/is readily available to them should they choose to take advantage of that. But through the Sundering and as shown in the 5th edition releases, the current Realms is moving back to the classic feel, much like D&D itself is in the new rules system.

One of the most common elements of Forgotten Realms releases for a long time was the Current Clack or rumors section that had short paragraphs, often by month of a given year or years, moving the story of the Realms forward. Most of the time, these were never expanded upon, leaving it to the DM to do so, or not. I always interpreted much of this as fiction, based on statements like this:

"Most news and rumors are spread across the Realms by caravans, and along coasts, by the crews of ships. In many a wayside settlement, whenever a caravan stops for the night, the populace turns out at local inns and taverns to hear the latest "clack" (what's being talked about). Travelers can often earn something to eat or a drink or two by relating enough entertaining lore. The freshest news is the most in demand-which, of course, leads to embroidering and outright tall tales, lies and half-truths and rumors building on each other into fanciful creations that bear little resemblance to their plainer and more demure beginnings."

"News" is very unreliable when it travels in this manner. And the more outrageous, the better. So telling a tall tale with a dragon-man would mostly likely be viewed as just that, a tall tale.

It also describes how the races interact:
"Humans numerically and culturally dominate the civilized surface Realms. Most humans hate and fear creatures they deem monsters, such as beholders, illithids, yuan-ti, drow, and goblinkin. "Goblinkin" refers to hobgoblins, orcs, goblins, and their lookalikes; most humans neither know nor care about actual species differences. In the words of the long-ago King Roreld of Athalantar, "If it looks like an orc, it's an orc." Many humans mistrust half-orcs and all elves, and a few mistrust all nonhumans, but in Faerun, most humans grew up dwelling or trading with elves, half-elves, dwarves, halflings, and gnomes, and so accept them as fellow citizens.
The folk of the Dales have typical backland human attitudes, hating and fearing half-orcs because they can't distinguish them from the ore mercenaries used so often by Zhentil Keep in Daggerdale. Some also mistake half-orcs for the beast-men (ogres) of Thar, having never seen real ogres (and lived to tell the tale), and will reach for the nearest weapon.
Almost all humans, elves, and dwarves in the Realms mistrust small, non-familial groups of orcs (four or fewer), and will be openly hostile to larger groups. As an old upcountry saying plainly states: "Orcs is trouble." (Or, in full: "Orcs is always trouble.")"

This is the feel that I expect in the Realms. The attitudes that if something looks like a monster, it's a monster. The Tolkienesque races are the 'normal' that other creatures are measured against when seeing for the first time. This is further supported by the discussion later about Special Bloodlines:

"From ancient days in the Realms until today, there have always been "special" families. These families, elf, human, or half-elf, have been bold enough to make secret pacts with other magic using races to gain magic of their own- as well as power, wealth, and influence. It's rumored that some of these families have interbred with their patron races, though, in the words of the long ago sage Alaundo, "Rumor can be a wild thing." Realmslore tells us that these patrons have included dragons, illithids, and beholders.
These pact-making families tend to keep themselves as hidden as possible, often taking other names and faces while they're out acting as the agents of those with whom they've made arrangements. Yet a few folk in the Realms know the names of some of these special clans: among the elves, some branches of Houses Starym and Elphaerendil; among humans, the Skeldragons and Talonmists; and among half-elves, the Alendrim, Saerendever, and Talyth families.
Much as nobles who plot treason against a ruler, these special families do much in secret, crave power, and betimes must do perilous or unlawful things. Their locations, reach, interests, capabilities, and deeds vary widely, and they and the patrons they serve-can be compelling and mysterious allies, manipulators, and foes."

I found it ironic that one of the first pieces of art is a typical 4th edition tiefling, although that race doesn't appear in the book as such at all. But this section describes what I would consider them to be.

For the most part, the 5th edition has brought the Realms back closer to this concept. Many of the classic Realms elements have returned. The dragonborn lands have been stripped back to a minimum, tieflings get a description that explains why they suddenly look so different, while at the same time returning the option for others to be subtle and largely undetectable as different than other humans.

Not everybody wants this, and you don't have to follow if you don't want to. In my case, I largely never left this Realms. If people want to be related to a dragon, and even have some special abilities as a result, I can work with that. I will probably go along with Tymanther remaining in the Realms. Don't really know how I'll handle whether there are any dragonborn as written as characters in my campaign, though. As far as I'm concerned, very few of them are to be found, and since I'm likely to base most of them off of their appearances in the 5th edition stories, most of them are working with the Cult of the Dragon. If so, it's not going to be an easy road to travel. I (and therefore the people of my Realms) see them as just too different.

Ilbranteloth
 

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Scribe

Legend
I can totally respect your viewpoint, but the setting has evolved beyond the skinny beardless human/short and bearded human/normal human roots it had.

For better or worse just depends on ones perspective. I do agree that the more monstrous races are going to be more rare, but so to is an adventurer in the first place.

I dont think this needs to change in any real sense either as it allows for 'purists' to draw a line as you are and others to embrace it as they will. Totally fine.
 

Hussar

Legend
So, if I'm understanding this right, FR is going back to a cheap Middle Earth knockoff and that's a good thing? Humans doing all the stuff that matters and everything else just along for the ride?

Yeah, not my bag thanks. I kinda got tired of that after the umpteenth pastiche of the eighties. Give the Realms of the Baldur's Gate game where you see all sorts of stuff wandering around.

Funny how being a lizard dude makes you feared but wearing wizards robes and being able to level a village doesn't.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
So, if I'm understanding this right, FR is going back to a cheap Middle Earth knockoff and that's a good thing? Humans doing all the stuff that matters and everything else just along for the ride?

Yeah, not my bag thanks. I kinda got tired of that after the umpteenth pastiche of the eighties. Give the Realms of the Baldur's Gate game where you see all sorts of stuff wandering around.

Funny how being a lizard dude makes you feared but wearing wizards robes and being able to level a village doesn't.

I certainly wouldn't call it cheap. But that's ok, I find the lack of imagination and depth in most of the monstrous pc races uninspiring. To each their own. :)

And the dudes in the robes are typically the ones you have to worry about. Those are the ones who think they are important. The dangerous ones are the ones that look like just another shopkeeper.

Ultimately, it's really about what you do with the source material.

Ilbranteloth
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Which would seem to me enough time that, unless you were really sheltered and out-of-the-way, you'd have heard something about them. Hell's bells, if these people have anything like a European lifespan (a bit over 5 decades for the unlucky, shy of 7 for the lucky), at least one generation has been born and died since they appeared. That could even have happened twice, back to back (born-lived-died then that same day another child is born, it lives and dies). And for humans, at least, it'd be at least four and possibly as many as seven "proper" generations (that is, from birth to giving birth) since they arrived; 100/25 = 4 as a minimum; add 1 for overlap (people alive at the time they arrived), and assume 120 years and a 20-year birth-to-birth time, and that's what you get (120/20 + 1 = 7). That's sort of the equivalent of being shocked and horrified by people descended from immigrants that arrived during your great-great-grandparents' lifetime, at the most recent.

And, unless I'm mistaken, FR's dragonborn spread out from Tymanther for pretty much that whole time ("A whole world NOT enslaved by dragons, even a little bit?! IT MUST BE WONDERFUL!") But given the real and meaningful differences, I wouldn't be surprised if they congregate in specific areas in other cities--a "dragonborn quarter" or "dragontown," if you will. :p But oddities like "I don't think they worship gods at all!" should surely come up now and again...and over

Also I have to say: The more I use the word "dragonborn," the more I hate it. Call 'em Tymantherians, call 'em Evans' "vayemniri," call 'em Arkhosians, something, because that oh-so-"functional" name is getting tiresome.

As always: it's your world, do what you want with it. But people who have been around and slowly, steadily spreading through the world for over a century...don't feel like something that should be sending many, let alone most, shopkeepers running for the hills and townsfolk to their local Torches-N'-Pitchforks-R-Us. It could--particularly if you intentionally play up the racism, exclusionism, and suspiciousness of the townsfolk-type people in your world. But it's far, far from required.

This is exactly my thoughts.

Also, not sure why Ilbrantaloth insists on concluding that because they are enemies in the adventure featuring the Cult of The Dragon, that it's a normal and well known thing for them to serve that organization, in spite of setting material explicitly stating that it's rare.
That is a long walk, at the least.
 

Ilbranteloth

Explorer
This is exactly my thoughts.

Also, not sure why Ilbrantaloth insists on concluding that because they are enemies in the adventure featuring the Cult of The Dragon, that it's a normal and well known thing for them to serve that organization, in spite of setting material explicitly stating that it's rare.
That is a long walk, at the least.

I'm not 'insisting' per se, I'm just going by what's been published. I don't recall in all of the quotes I posted indicating that it's rare for them to work for the Cult of the Dragon - if you could provide that source I'd love to see it. Instead, I find the following:

In the 4th edition campaign setting is calls out the Cult of the Dragon of one of three power groups in in Tymanther, see the sidebar.

In the same source, the Cult of the Dragon entry indicates that "Dragonborn are also common...their militaristic ideals complementing the cult's ideology."

In the Neverwinter campaign setting, dragonborn are only mentioned in two random encounter tables, one for the city, and one for encounters with the Cult of the Dragon.

In at least half of the published adventures that have a dragonborn, they are working with the Cult of the Dragon. Note that the vast majority of mentions of a dragonborn in any adventure is a single NPC.

The way I look at it, which is also specifically what has been published, is that most people in the Realms never travel much at all, and 'news' is unreliable as such.

As cbwjm responded:
I wouldn't put much stock in the whole "most people only travel a few miles from home" bit. This is because that refers to farmers, villagers, serfs, etc. If you are a mercenary company, or a caravan guard, or any kind of soldier then it is likely that you travel much further afield. Think of Alexander and his army making it all the way to India, or the Romans conquering Europe (Although I hear there was at least one village which held out against the invaders). You will also have sailors and merchant ships traveling to other ports and you can bet that the dragonborn would be sending out ships if they have means to make them. Of course the best example of people who often travel much further than a few miles are of course, adventurers. These guys are not only traveling so far that they end up on other planes but they also meet and bring back all kinds of crazy traveling companions. If any village is a key point of travel with adventurers passing through then you can bet that that village has had a few dragonborn float through. Any large cosmopolitan city, such as Waterdeep, they will have definitely had visits by dragonborn travelers, considering everything else that the average Waterdeep citizen has seen, it's likely that they didn't even blink when the dragonborn showed up. I can understand that some out of the way villages, perhaps even most villages in civilised areas haven't seen a dragonborn, but those close to a major city would have likely heard of them, possibly from Jim the local farmer who takes his wares to the city to sell.

I'm not saying that people must accept dragonborn as being all over the realms, your game so do what makes the group happy, but if any do show up then it is likely to be in an adventuring party and people probably aren't going to be too amazed at them. They may even mistake them as some kind of lizardfolk until they breath fire.

That is exactly what is described:

"Across this vast expanse travel minstrels and peddlers, caravan merchants and guards, soldiers, sailors, and steel-hearted adventurers carrying tales of strange, glorious, faraway places." and

"The paramount travelers are merchants, peddlers, mercenaries, and drovers, all of them moving goods or services (their own) from one place to another."

That is, the vast majority don't travel. Adventurers are rare, despite them being the focal point of every campaign. It's one of those situations where our focus on the rare makes them seem common. They aren't. This sets the baseline. Most people don't travel far, and thus most of the people they see are locals. This has been repeated in many FR supplements over the years. Merchants and stories about adventurers are more common than the adventurers themselves. Magic exists, but most Realmsfolk has never seen it cast directly, other than simple enchantments like light globes and other useful low-magic items. or felt it cast on them. The new cantrip system stretches this a bit, but even still, if adventurer's are rare, then so are those that cast cantrips. It's not surprising that something magical like the elves have magical ability, they're elves after all.

On trade routes and in cities, they see foreigners. But again, the vast majority of those foreigners look a lot like they do. More importantly, regarding the races like elves, dwarves, and such, they even act and speak like they'd expect. Humans vary in appearance, language, and dress from region to region far more than elves, dwarves, halflings, or gnomes. Dragonborn stand out in every way. And it's not really a question as to whether I or you can imagine what it would be like to be a humanoid dragon, it's a question as to whether your average Realmsfolk would, or would even want to. Lizardfolk aren't seen in adventuring parties, and even if they think it's a lizardfolk, that's not good.

"If it looks like a lizardfolk, it's a lizardfolk." That is, not good. They probably wouldn't be openly hostile and attack a single lizardfolk, but they probably wouldn't welcome it into town either. To me it's a "we don't serve their kind" situation at least, and more likely an aggressive 'move along.'

Cities are different, but even Waterdeep has its limits. It is noted that 'evil' races like drow, orcs and other goblinoids, etc. are not welcome. Overcoming that is difficult.

There are no big Alexandrian armies or crusades, no large-scale military conflicts. Nor are there large-scale religious pilgrimages or conflicts. So sellswords hire out to caravans, or groups involved in regional conflicts. Groups like the Cult of the Dragon, or in the past, the Zhentarim (another group I'm still on the fence about, incidentally).

The dragonborn are non-religious, nor do they have any holy sites obviously. So there are no pilgrimages.

We already know that some are out hunting dragons. In addition, there are constant battles with the orcs to the south, the threat (real or percieved) from Murghom, and they have been working on forming relationships with their immediate neighbors.

Trade is something that I find interesting. Tymanther is inland, so they have no ports or ships, so caravan travel is coming by land. Can they build ships? Depends on skills and resources. But they won't be a regular stop for merchants by sea, at least until they build a port.

They are in a remote section of the world, and a merchant caravan (at least initially) expecting to find Unther instead finds they land overrun by (invading?) dragonborn. In fact, the caravans probably heard about the creatures from the neigboring communities before entering. How long before a merchant is actually willing to risk it? How long before adventurers want to go slay the dragon-people and take their treasure?

I've always used the various human languages and such in the Realms, and highly doubt that a creature from another world would speak any of them. But assuming they do, it will take time to establish trade, particularly because they have no coins that are accepted anywhere else, no natural resources. Not to mention potential distrust.

Beyond that, this is a nation, or primarily a city, that is dropped into a new world. What little we know about them would indicate that they had a culture of similar sophistication as others in the Realms. So, they've developed armor, weapons, blacksmithing, agriculture, husbandry, art, etc. Based on their implied biology I would question them being omnivorous, but we'll go with it since it mentions farmers. Sounds great, until you're in a new world. What of your natural resources? The farmers will plant new farms, although the climate and crops may be quite different. Logging can obviously pick up relatively quickly, although there isn't much to be found around Tymanther. They would have to survey and build new mines and quarries, or find some and take them by force. All the while exploring a strange new land, with new monsters and potential enemies or allies.

Assuming they use the same gold standard, their coins (should they have some), would be worth their weight, minus any moneychanging discount, which is fine if that equals their value, but it may not. The merchants accepting their coins will either have to melt them down, or hope that other cities will accept this unknown currency. Even the currency of known locations is often worth less outside of the region they are minted (see Waterdhavian and Silverymoon coins). Minting coins requires gold, silver, etc. If this is in short supply, the value of the coins will increase within Tymanther, but not outside of it. That's a problem.

So what are they trading? Have they ever traded before? If they were the only nation to arise from the dragon empires as independent, who did they trade with? The dragons? I can see a lot of things that they would need to receive. But for selling? Most likely it would be exotics. Art, trinkets, etc. Perhaps clothes. Something that looks exotic. Remember, natural resources are scarce to begin with, so these can't easily be replaced yet. But a merchant could find a way to sell something that looks exotic, or tastes exotic if they have an unusual spice or something that will travel well (and hopefully will grow in this new land).

So their #1 resource is themselves. As guards or mercenaries. So a few hire on as caravan guards. They would be the oddity in each town the caravan comes to. But if they kept their head down and did their job well, they'd build a reputation. Not known throughout the Realms, and certainly not transferring good-will toward an entire race, but it's a start.

As for mercenaries, they'd hire out to who needs them. This would again most likely start with neighboring lands, or those typically hiring mercenaries. Cult of the Dragon is one of the big ones. There are other 'evil' organizations that hire mercenaries as well.

These are just a few of the hurdles that would confront the new nation. There are an endless number of ways they could be handled. In my view, it would take a long period of time, with distrust on both times, probably decades, to re-establish stability within their own nation, before worrying about exploring the world around them. Once they do, I view progress as quite slow, for a variety of reasons again.

The distance from Tymanther to Waterdeep in a straight line is about 2/3 the length of the Silk Road. By land it's going to be at least as long. That's a journey of at least a year. So somebody is going to point out that they have been around plenty long enough to do that. The answer is yes, but. But they are spending considerable time rebuilding their nation, their resources, hopefully not dying from the exotic new diseases they've never experienced, etc. After some time, as trade is being established, some will travel farther and farther, but it will take time. Considerably longer to reach that point in significant numbers my opinion.

We don't have any sort of exact comparison, but it took a long time for settlers to move inland in the Americas. A long time. Not only because it was difficult, or the native population, but because they didn't need to. The dragonborn population of Tymanther doesn't have any need[/] to travel. They aren't overpopulated, they aren't expansionists, they aren't interested in starting wars, they aren't attempting to recover holy sites, the only real drive is to slay dragons. I would think the majority of travel would be east, toward Murghom. In fact, any conflict between Murghom and Tymanther would probably strain relationships with High Imaskar since they will likely spill over into their territory. For folks that enjoy dragonborn, there's a campaign waiting to be written (or was, now that Mulhorand is back).

Ilbranteloth
 


LordStorm

First Post
I agree its a bit silly to not give them tails. I do understand not giving out wings at low level (although they did with Aarakocra). But if they give out wings to Sorcs at high level they could have given wings to Dragonborn at High level also. Warforged were very popular creations I was NOT surprised to see them in Faerun.
 


Mirtek

Hero
I'm hoping Evan's next book covers just that actually, as thats where the last one left off.
Well according to her the DB indeed travel only rarely, as they're numbers are low and duty to clan is too strong to waste members by having them wander the world. Especially since outsider merchants are coming to them eagerly enough to supply them with what they don't get from their down lands
 

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