Dragonborn Paladin starting stats

[bjorn2bwild]

unfortunately, both astral fire and blade opportunist require dex 13

 

[daddystabz]

unfortunately, both astral fire and blade opportunist require dex 13

Right...and all I will need to do is add 2 pts into Dex with my starting stats and I will be set!

I will have to check what lvl I will be able to get 2 pts into Dex at.

 

[Lurker37]

Heres some comments just from what I've noticed in the rules, and a bit of fiddling with spreadsheets. Actual play may vary, and if it does I'm keen to hear of it, and even more keen to understand why:

You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.

Dragonbreath will become useless for minion-clearing if it's not linked to a primary stat - imagine needing an 18 to hit even minions by level 28. Even as it is, while you start off rolling 8 or 9 to hit, even with a primary stat that started at 18 (with racial bonus) you end up needing to roll 13 to hit the average monster at level 30 (DMG p42).

Since most powers that give you a bonus to hit require hitting and damaging the enemy first, it seems to me that minions will either be at full defences or dead. Has anyone found a feat ability that would give dragon breath a better chance to hit without damaging the target first?

Also consider how it will feel to play the character. Str-based paladins are mainly about smites with weapons - they need to close to melee range (several powers help with this) and their weapon influences their damage. Cha-based paladins will be casting spells prayers with their holy symbol more often than they're swinging their weapons - they feel more like the 3E cleric in some ways. The problem I see with this is that as defenders they'll usually have monsters in their face, meaning that any ranged or area power will provoke an OA. If you want a mix of these powers then you'll need to keep both Cha and Str as high as possible, while still wanting high Wis for the bonuses to some powers and at least some Con bonus for dragonborn racials.

Cha-based pladins also suffer because (assuming they make will secondary to maximise the effect of their Cha powers) both their level-increased stats go into Will defence. Str-based paladins increase stats that feed both Fort and Will, so will have two good defences instead of one.

As I said at the start - if I'm wrong in any of my observations I'm very keen to hear about what I'm doing wrong.

 

[Victim]

High strength is nice, though. Remember that pallies get a minor action at-will that lets them add their strength modifier to an attack... couple that with pretty much any of their at-wills, and they're adding twice their strength modifier to every attack they make. Our own Dragonborn Pally did just that - dealing 1d6+6 on an average attack, each round.

Divine Strength is an encounter power, not at will.

 

[Kichwas]

Obviously a little different than a Dragonborne, without the breath weapon... but for my half Elf I've been considering:

St 12
Co 14
Dx 12
In 10
Wi 14
Ch 18

Or:
change:
St to 8
Wi to 16

Other than when I have to make a basic melee attack, Str is useless as far as I can tell as I'm going all protection / cha. At level 11, will probably go into Justicar. I considered Champion of Order for the double marking, but it has two str powers that would be useless... A hard choice.

Power path:

Enfeebling Strike
Bolstering Strike
Shielding Smite
Radiant Delirium
-
Martyr's Blessing
-
Righteous Smite
-
Hallowed Circle or Sign of Vuln
-
Divine Bodyguard
-
Beckon Foe
-
Radiant Pulse
-
Noble Shield
-
Entangling Smite
-
True Nemesis
-
Angelic Intercession
-
Hand of the Gods (if I Divine challenge A, and then use this on B next to A, can I get 2 marks as both are hit satifying Divine Challenge needs?)
-
Corona of Blinding Radiance
(Righteous Inferno is bad as it causes them to flee, and a paladin wants to get hit)
-
etc... I pathed up to 20.

 

[daddystabz]

Str is not a dump stat for a Paladin. Some of their prayers allow them to add their str to attacks and many of their other abilities are based on either Str or Cha or Wis.

 

[KarinsDad]

Our DP did:

Str 18
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 8
Wis 14
Cha 15

This allows him to bump up Dex in order to get decent Reflex saves, Shield Specialization at 11th, and Heavy Blade Specialization (or whatever it is called) at 21st.

His stats at 28th level would be:

Str 26
Con 14
Dex 18
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 20

At that level without magic or feats or powers (just Shield Specialization as a defensive feat), he would be:

AC 35 (normal Plate Armor, not Warplate or anything)
REF 30
FORT 33
WILL 30

The problem with dumping both Int and Dex is that Reflex saves (and inits) suffer.

Balancing stats is all about pros and cons. But this allows a Defensive Paladin to not have any glaring weaknesses, and to gain some feats that he is normally shut out of. Sure, Wis and Con are not adding a lot to his abilities, but an extra point or so there doesn't do as much as good Reflex saves. IMO.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Str is not a dump stat for a Paladin. Some of their prayers allow them to add their str to attacks and many of their other abilities are based on either Str or Cha or Wis.

Roughly 50% of the paladin powers are Str based, and 50% cha based. If you just pick cha based powers you can dumpstat str and put those points in for instance wis, consititution and dex.

The powers are usually str + wis OR cha + wis. I haven't seen any with str + cha.

 

[BradfordFerguson]

I have to agree with Blackbrrd,

You either want Str + Wis or Cha + Wis. Having high str & high cha is a waste. Very seldomly does it look like you need both high str and high cha in terms of paladin powers. Wisdom does matter with powers that key off of Str or Cha, however single powers never (?) power off of both Str & Cha.

I agree that dragon breath is good at getting rid of minions, but that is also what a wizard should be good at?

for paladin: Str seems better at damage dealing. Cha seems better at helping out allies, but is still good at damage dealing.

 

[mneme]

You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.

Well, except, for, if you're planning on epic levels, the +1s across the board (and, since there are 7 stat increases 1-30, the odd points from the last three boosts; if you want an optimized 30th level char, you need to take the last three round in a circle unless you started with odd stats). This does mean that if you're planning for epic feats requiring a 13, you need to start with an 11, or a 12 for Paragon feats requiring a 13.

Dragonbreath will become useless for minion-clearing if it's not linked to a primary stat - imagine needing an 18 to hit even minions by level 28. Even as it is, while you start off rolling 8 or 9 to hit, even with a primary stat that started at 18 (with racial bonus) you end up needing to roll 13 to hit the average monster at level 30 (DMG p42).

Dragonbreath will nearly always be linked to a primary stat -- it keys off any physical stat, and -most- classes Dragonborn want to play have a physical stat they care about. (exceptions: DB Fey Warlock, DB Cha paladin). Also, don't forget that it A. attacks reflex, and B. autoscales by tier. A 30th level, non-demigod character DB who started with an 18 in in a primary trait will have a +8 bonus in their primary stat, +6 for DB's inherent bonus, plus 15 = 29. I don't think p42 is that useful, so I'll look at some l30 critters -- The Ancient Red Dragon has a reflex 43, so you hit it on a 14 (unless you're a fighter, and hit it on a 13); much more often than you hit its AC of 48 with the same bonuses plus a proficiency bonus. The Tarasque has a more reasonable Reflex of 38, so you'll hit it on an easy 9. Much more importantly, the highest level minion we have is the Lich Vestage, level 26, with reflex 40 -- a 26th level non-fighter can have a +8 stat bonus, so is at +27 base, hitting on a 13, without bonuses. That's not that bad, but it's easy enough to boost with helper powers, I think. (which given that minion's defenses, you might want anyway. Vestages are pretty tough to take down!)

Cha-based paladins will be casting spells prayers with their holy symbol more often than they're swinging their weapons - they feel more like the 3E cleric in some ways. The problem I see with this is that as defenders they'll usually have monsters in their face, meaning that any ranged or area power will provoke an OA.

Cha based paladins are an interesting beast, actually. They do tend to attract attention, but as ranged defenders, their best bet is actually to challenge a foe in melee (but not marked by) another character, or ideally more than one. The monster's then got the fun choice of charging past several defenders (drawing mutliple AoOs) to get at the happy paladin, or sit there, attack in melee, and take a pile of damage every round. A lovely choice...for the PCs. There are also a bunch of Cha melee/close attacks available to the Cha-based paladin -- all the paragon Cha attacks are melee or burst, frex. Actually, going down the list, the -only- level where there -isn't- a melee or "close burst, enemies only" attack is 15. That's it, though there also isn't a 1st level Daily non-ranged attack (but both 1st level enounter attacks are not ranged, and the all the 1st level Paladin at-wills are melee). The only needs a Cha-paladin has for Str are Divine Strength (after all, not -all- monsters drop saves you need to save Divine Mettle for) and AoOs.

The defense question is interesting--a Cha-paladin -will- have a lower total set of defenses than a Str-paladin -- but they'll also be very, very flexible -- with big close (and -selective-) burst effects, healing, buffing (Divine Wrath FTW!), melee, debufs, etc--like a wizard, they trade defense for more flexible offense. Really, the only thing they're missing is a Magic Missile equivalent--give them a Cha-based At-will attack that counts as a basic attack and they're G2G. (beyond that, well, go with at least 14 Str, 14 Wis, and 18 Cha and they're decent enough, even with weak attacks of opportunity, particularly with great blast effects if enemies try to mob them, and ranged and marking if enemies ignore them).