Dragonborn Paladin starting stats

[Kichwas]

You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.

An avenging paladin, basically a DPS toon (damage per second), yes, but a protection paladin is more interesting in being a target - and in a min/max game, in any choice between increasing your chance to be focused on and dealing out damage, the protection paladin should choose chance to be a focus - which really does mean, max out Cha and Wis and gimp Str. Cha for your powers, Wis as it boosts up so many of the Cha powers.

Cha based paladins are an interesting beast, actually. They do tend to attract attention, but as ranged defenders, their best bet is actually to challenge a foe in melee (but not marked by) another character, or ideally more than one. The monster's then got the fun choice of charging past several defenders (drawing mutliple AoOs) to get at the happy paladin, or sit there, attack in melee, and take a pile of damage every round. A lovely choice...for the PCs.
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The only needs a Cha-paladin has for Str are Divine Strength (after all, not -all- monsters drop saves you need to save Divine Mettle for) and AoOs.
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The defense question is interesting--a Cha-paladin -will- have a lower total set of defenses than a Str-paladin -- but they'll also be very, very flexible

Honestly don't see myself, on a Cha paladin, -ever- using Divine Strength. The other Channel Divinity powers are -always- better options for my role in the group - defending and making myself the prime target.

A protection based paladin, which is the Cha line, is not there to deliver hits and damage, but to take hits and damage. You want to be dangerous to ignore, but you don't need to be so dangerous if they pay attention to you. In fact you are -more- effective if you can be less harmful if paid attention to, because that encourages critters to pay attention to you.

I've actually been thumbing through my book noting down all the ways I can -give- enemies combat advantage against me. Trying to find every trick in the book I can to paint a big bullseye on my character.

Even if I have to charge into the middle of them and lay down prone... for a protection paladin, that's actually a wise tactic. (and similar to what goos prot paladins in World of Warcraft do, btw).

The purpose of a defender is to say "hey, hit me, not those other guys!" so that the rest of the group can then unleash the full potential off all their offensive abilities while the cleric spams healing on me without having to split the heals up between me and several others - or at the least, having to burn as few as possible on others.

A final note, in my Cha pally build to 20 on page 1, if I recall right, all of the abilities I took are about swinging my weapon. None of them about prayers.

 

[Lurker37]

Having re-read the paladin class and actually planned out a couple of builds, one for Str and one for Cha, I've reached the following conclusions:

I was wrong about Cha-based being mainly a caster. As others have pointed out, it's a pretty good mix of types with plenty of weapon attacks and close attacks. Only a couple of powers will provoke OA.

Str-based powers don't use Cha, and vice-versa. Wis is useful for both, but moreso for Cha-based it seems, although this depend on the actual powers chosen.

Needing both Str and Cha is only going to happen if the character deliberately takes a mix of Str and Cha based powers. Both builds can do quite well without taking cross-picks except for Str-based paladins at level 9.

Str-based paladins have fewer powers to chose from, only having one Str-based power at many levels.

Being able to have more than one target marked requires using powers that need to hit the target(s). Likewise many other attacks that can disable or distract the enemy by doing things like pushing, weakening, dazing or blinding them require a successful attack. I'm not convinced that a Cha-paladin is better off dropping prone than potentially striking every adjacent enemy blind. Add powers like "any attack you make will also hurt you, bypassing your immunities" and suddenly I really want to be able to hit the enemy as a Cha-based Paladin.

Dragonborn without a Con bonus waste one of their racial powers (Con bonus adds to Healing Surges.)

Dragonborn without a primary or secondary physical stat will really struggle to hit equal-level minions (Edit: With their Breath Weapon) in the epic tier. (Let's say the highest started at 12, so went up to a mighty 14. That's +23 to hit at level 30. That means a 17 or better to hit those Lich Vastages, who are a full four levels lower.)

Looking at the powers that Wis bonus affects, some of them look really nice to have a high Wis bonus for. I'm just torn between that and having a second high defense score, given how much difference 3 or 4 points makes to the math now.

Is it worth losing some points in Wis bonus (with all it grants to paladin Cha powers) to pump up another stat? If so which one? Str because of the racial +2? Con for healing surges and hit points? Would it even be worth considering Int for a rituals or Dex for initiative?

I'm less concerned about the Breath Weapon since I noticed Cha-based paladins get some burst[>1] attacks, but I would still be quite disappointed to have such a thematic power be essentially useless at high levels since it would still be attached to a stat that had fallen behind the curve.

 

[Kichwas]

I'm starting to think Dragonborn make better Avengers than protectors because of the breath weapon issue. Essentially, it becomes a racial power that they aren't able to maximize.

Con bonus to Healing Surge is rough for a paladin. After you max out Str (or Cha), then Wis, your next step is Con, and just how high can get it after the other two... To be honest when I read that racial power on Dragonborn I came away thinking it was underpowered. Even if you had high Con, like a fighter, even at 18. Is a +4 to healing surge really equal to what other races get?

I'm a little disappointed that there aren't more Str based paladin powers. It reminds me a bit of the situation in Warcraft, where there's a notable bias in the abilities for Protection over Retribution. I just hope that Avengers play out as strong as Protectors (unlike the situation in WoW - where the only good paladins at endgame are Protection line, the class making poor raid healers and poor damagers).

Remember that for a Protection based paladin, Cha adds to to-hit for the at-wills, so they shouldn't have any trouble laying waste to minions. Add to this powers like Radiant Pulse (and the other level 9 dailies which hit everyone in burst), Just Action, Challenge the Unjust, Righteous Inferno (pretty much only useful for swamps of minions as it damages on a miss at burst 2 - useless otherwise as any survivor will flee and avoid you until you turn it off, defeating the point of being a defender), and others.

 

[daddystabz]

So would I be better off trying to get say like a 16 in both Str and Cha and maybe a 13 or 14 in Wis to start off with as a Dragonborn Paladin for my starting stats instead of maxing Str to 18 and building like this:

Str 18* (+4), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 13 (+1), Cha 16* (+3)
(+2 to Str and Cha from Racial bonuses)?

 

[Blackbrrd]

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Dragonborn without a primary or secondary physical stat will really struggle to hit equal-level minions in the epic tier. (Let's say the highest started at 12, so went up to a mighty 14. That's +23 to hit at level 30. That means a 17 or better to hit those Lich Vastages, who are a full four levels lower.)
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Why would he struggle to hit if he hasn't got a high physical stat? He will be using Cha to hit instead. As you mentioned yourself, you can go exclusively Cha powers.

Personally I would have low str, high con on a cha-based paladin. Which means, a half-elf would work very well.

What a cha-based paladin misses out on is opportunity attacks until he gets to level 11+ when he can take a feat that lets him use at-will powers instead of basic attacks for OA.

A cha based paladin also lacks good ranged options. (there is no reason to bump dex high enough to make it good)

 

[Destil]

You want an 18 in either Strength or Charisma, and a 14 in Wisdom. The rest all depends on what feats you want. You do not need 16s in both Strength and Charisma -- you'll only be attacking with one or the other.

Cheers, -- N

Not at level 9 you won't.

(There are no Str powers at 9, I'd recommend fighter or warlord multiclass, the possibly retrain them away out once you can drop your level 9 daily if you go Str).

So would I be better off trying to get say like a 16 in both Str and Cha and maybe a 13 or 14 in Wis to start off with as a Dragonborn Paladin for my starting stats instead of maxing Str to 18 and building like this:

Str 18* (+4), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 13 (+1), Cha 16* (+3)
(+2 to Str and Cha from Racial bonuses)?

Dragonborn are odd, because they really like Con. Especially paladins... who already suffer from MAD.

That's not a bad build, but I'd personally tank Cha to 12 (+2 for 14) and get Wis higher, possibly split the difference between Wis and Con. A Str based paladin gets some bonus for Cha...

 

[Lurker37]

Why would he struggle to hit if he hasn't got a high physical stat? He will be using Cha to hit instead. As you mentioned yourself, you can go exclusively Cha powers.

Sorry. I was referring to the Breath Weapon, but forgot to mention that. I've edited my post.

What a cha-based paladin misses out on is opportunity attacks until he gets to level 11+ when he can take a feat that lets him use at-will powers instead of basic attacks for OA.

I must be missing something. The only feat like that I can see is the heavy blade one, but it requires high scores in Str and Dex.

Actually, isn't that a serious flaw in a Cha-based Paladin? They have to use Str for OA, but since Str is low...

 

[mneme]

MAD about Paladins

Lurker: re OA: oh, yeah. Er, didn't I mention this? Biggest problem a Cha-based Paladin has is crap OAs; if they could take an at-will that was a basic Cha-based melee attack with no specials, they'd take it every time (and were I running, I'd probably add it to the list; it's a perfectly balanced power that fits the archetype).

The level 9 problem isn't -that- much of a problem for a Str-based Pally. Actually, check that; yes; yes it is. From levels 1-14, there are only two Str dailies--Paladin's Judgement and Martyr's Retribution. So the Str Paladin is stuck spending two feats multiclassing (almost certainly -- to Ranger or Fighter, likely. Maybe Cleric?) or having to load a Chr daily she can't afford to maintain.

There's another MAD issue with the Paladin, now that I think on it. The Paladin is all about healing surges. I mean, really -- the Paladin's a defender, which means she takes hits and needs to be healed (spend healing surges), plus she has the ability to spend her healing surges to heal someone else, plus she has powers like Martyr's Retribution (which costs a healing surge for an above-level attack), Bloodied Retribution (Good attack, but requires that you need a healing surge -- and lets you spend one), and Death Ward (costs a healing surge for good, level-scaled, but limited healing...heh; I can so totally see a paladin and a rogue (or anyone, but it's funnier with a rogue) teaming up to "heal" a badly wounded comerade. "ok, you hit him. Once he's dying, I'll heal him up nicely before he's at risk!"). So there's good reason for a Paladin to want a high-constitution; they -do- stuff with their healing surges, even if they don't take all that much damage due to the ability to wear Plate at first level (and FWIW, I totally disagree that the paladin wants to be beat on; due to the healing surge mechanic, -nobody- can tank for the party in 4e. The paladin wants to put the enemy in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" position; ideally one where some enemies bounce off the Pally's armor, and others attack friends and get zapped by the Paladin's Divine Challenge; remember, the Challenge is strictly worse than the Fighter's challenge if it never does damage). However, the Paladin only has one more Surge than the fighter does, and has no use other for constitution (unless she's a Dragonborn) other than HP and feats (and that need is drastically reduced by starting with Plate).

So a Paladin wants Str (for OAs, if nothing else) Con (for extra healing surges, if nothing else), one of Dex or Int (for reflex defense/init. Or more likely, you get a paladin with the same Achilles heel as every other paladin, as init isn't really that important for the paladin and bumping a ref/AC stat -just- for reflex defense is a bad idea), Wis (for lay on hands and boosting nearly every Paladin power) and Chas (for Divine Challenge, if nothing else).

All that said, the Paladin is still a pretty cool class, capable of doing defense, minion killing, good damage, healing and buffing.

I suppose you might say that the Paladin has stayed true to her roots in 3.5 -- as the most MAD class there is.

 

[Regicide]

There's another MAD issue with the Paladin, now that I think on it. The Paladin is all about healing surges. I mean, really -- the Paladin's a defender, which means she takes hits and needs to be healed (spend healing surges),

Maybe... the paladin can give themselves a lot of temporary hit points. Maybe not effective at higher levels, but at low levels a paladin could walk out of a lot of combats with almost no damage on them despite having been hit a lot.

 

[Jack of Shadows]

Obviously a little different than a Dragonborne, without the breath weapon...

OK,

Total threadjack but just because of that small typo I am now compelled to create a Dragonborn Rogue who was found floating in the sea and has no memory of his past. I'll call his quest the Dragonborne Conspiracy.

JoS