Dragonlance Questions. Please help.

[Zappo]

Renegade wizards, those who haven't passed the Test or refuse to dedicate themselves to the gods of magic, may multiclass freely with divine spellcasters if their divine patron has no problem with it.

While we're here: where do renegades get their power anyway? Not from the three moons, obviously. Do they get it from another god? Can any god grant arcane magic, if it so desires? Do renegades get power from a non-divine source?

And, BTW, how could Raistlin conceivably take on the gods, considering that all nuitari had to do was to withdraw her support before his ascension, leaving the wizard powerless? Did he find another source of arcane magic, a source outside the control of the gods?

 

[Cam Banks]

While we're here: where do renegades get their power anyway? Not from the three moons, obviously. Do they get it from another god? Can any god grant arcane magic, if it so desires? Do renegades get power from a non-divine source?

Yes, they do get their magic from the three moons. More accurately, the moons broadcast arcane power to Krynn, which any individual with the natural talent and skill can attempt to master. Wizards don't need to be faithful individuals to use the magic the gods provide, just willing to invest the time and energy to the study and preparation of spells.

What the gods of magic do, and what the Test is the gateway into, is reward dedication and commitment with enhanced power and resources. The phases of the moons only affect those wizards who have passed the Test and survived (and who, in game terms, have taken levels in the Wizard of High Sorcery prestige class). In addition, certain secrets known to the Orders, which are keys to unlock the greater power of the moons, are only available to those wizards who have taken one of the three gods as their divine patron. Thus, the majority of Krynn's wizards (those who are capable of casting 3rd level spells and greater) will usually be Wizards of High Sorcery, not renegades. A renegade will be just a standard wizard, with no additional benefits, whose only real connection to the moons is that which any wizard has to the magic created by them.

And, BTW, how could Raistlin conceivably take on the gods, considering that all nuitari had to do was to withdraw her support before his ascension, leaving the wizard powerless? Did he find another source of arcane magic, a source outside the control of the gods?

Nuitari, who is male in most accounts, probably wasn't all that pleased with what Raistlin was doing. However, Raistlin had amassed a considerable amount of power at that stage, enough that he likely didn't need the additional help Nuitari usually bestows upon his Order. Also, I can't remember exactly how it played out in the alternate reality (it's been ages since I read Test of the Twins) but I think Nuitari may have been the last one to go, perhaps out of deference.

Regardless, Raistlin's a real exception to almost every rule regarding magic in the setting. Not exactly the benchmark, if you know what I mean.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Zappo]

In addition, certain secrets known to the Orders, which are keys to unlock the greater power of the moons, are only available to those wizards who have taken one of the three gods as their divine patron. Thus, the majority of Krynn's wizards (those who are capable of casting 3rd level spells and greater) will usually be Wizards of High Sorcery, not renegades. A renegade will be just a standard wizard, with no additional benefits, whose only real connection to the moons is that which any wizard has to the magic created by them.

If I've understood correctly, then, the moon gods do not directly control the magic which a single individual can wield, like gods can do with priests. That's good, otherwise it sounds too much like divine magic. So having access to the full magical power is a matter of knowing certain secrets which are only revealed to characters that pass the Test? A wizard who has passed the Test will always keep his power, regardless of what he does (breaking the vows, teaching secrets around, that sort of stuff)?

 

[Alzrius]

If I've understood correctly, then, the moon gods do not directly control the magic which a single individual can wield, like gods can do with priests.

This is hard to say, since

Spoiler

at the end of the War of Souls, the three gods of magic offer their magic back to Dalamar and Palin; they respectively agree and decline.

However, instances like that aside, it does seem that the gods of magic can't stop an individual who uses their magic. The Thorn Knights (arcane spellcasting) section of the Knights of Takhisis, for example, served only Takhisis, and no other gods. However, they drew magic from all three moons. It's doubtful Solinari approved of an order of mages that only revered Takhisis, but that didn't stop said order from using his power, along with the power of the other two moons.

So having access to the full magical power is a matter of knowing certain secrets which are only revealed to characters that pass the Test?

That depends on what you mean by "full magical power", but I'd say this isn't correct. A renegade wizard can still learn up to 9th level spells (or even epic level spells, perhaps), just like a normal arcane spellcaster. They just don't get the extra insights and powers from the phases of their moon...however, they also don't suffer the drawbacks from when their moon is waning, either.

A wizard who has passed the Test will always keep his power, regardless of what he does (breaking the vows, teaching secrets around, that sort of stuff)?

I don't think that matters. The Second Cataclysm notwithstanding (since thats an involuntary loss of arcane magic, not a willful withdrawl of it), I can't think of an instance when any arcane spellcaster has been denied his power by the deities of magic.

 

[Nightfall]

Al,

There's a first time for everything.

 

[adembroski3]

My interpretation is that magic on Krynn is ambiant, and there are two ways to access it, though several methods for each of those.

Primal Sorcery and High Sorcery (aka Sorcery and Wizardry) are the same "substance", and no the gods do not prevent anyone from tapping it (except in extreme situation. Dalamar, Raistlin, and Palin have all be stripped of their magical ability at one time or another).

The common method prior to the Chaos War is focusing magic through the moons. It is my interpretation that by giving in to the tests and becoming a member of the Orders of High Sorcery, a wizard is able to use the moons as a sort of focus, and are better able to "tap" the magical energy than a wizard who has not joined the Conclave.

A sorcerer bypasses this learned approach altogether and uses his own force of will to manipulate those same energies. However, this method is both dangerous and difficult. A sorcerer stands a much larger chance of failing his spells, and in fact a spell can blow up in his face. This was represented fairly well in the Saga system, but really hasn't been touched upon in 3rd edition. They've simply inserted the Sorcerer class plus a divine version (divine magic exists in us all... the leftover creation stuff, which we are able to tap ourselves) called the mystic.

 

[Alzrius]

Primal Sorcery and High Sorcery (aka Sorcery and Wizardry) are the same "substance"

We know that isn't correct though. The sorcery is ambient energies left over from the creation of Krynn. Wizardry is the direct power of the deities of magic.

Dalamar, Raistlin, and Palin have all be stripped of their magical ability at one time or another).

Raistlin could have used his magic after he left the Abyss, he chose not to because he knew he wouldn't be able to stop. Dalamar and Palin lost theirs after the Chaos War, when everyone lost theirs.

 

[Cam Banks]

However, instances like that aside, it does seem that the gods of magic can't stop an individual who uses their magic. The Thorn Knights (arcane spellcasting) section of the Knights of Takhisis, for example, served only Takhisis, and no other gods. However, they drew magic from all three moons.

Well, that's just what people believed they were doing, but no - they were getting their enhanced power directly from Takhisis. Tricky, isn't she? You can imagine that Nuitari really, really didn't like the Thorn Knights, or his mother, after that.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[M.L. Martin]

We know that isn't correct though. The sorcery is ambient energies left over from the creation of Krynn. Wizardry is the direct power of the deities of magic.

Actually, unless this has been updated by the DLCS and/or AoM, High Sorcery is the energy of primal sorcery taken up by the gods of magic and redirected in a purified, focused fashion.

Matthew L. Martin

 

[krynndm]

Just had a few DL questions. Curious, 'tis all.

1) When the gods "left" Krynn after the *First* Cataclysm, could arcane spellcasters still cast spells? Because I know that they draw their arcane spells from the 3 moons and the moons are *really* the 3 gods of magic. What was the *official* answer for this?

2) When the gods "left" Krynn after the *Second* Cataclysm, could arcane spellcasters still cast spells? Now there is no gods and no moons! I haven't read any of the novels or source books for this era so I'm not sure what the answer is.

3) If mortals can draw divine power from *within* (ie. the Mystic), then why have gods at all on Krynn? Is this explained anywhere coz I know if I run a DL campaign my players will ask.

4) Can a priest of Solonari/Nuitari/Justarus cast arcane spells?

Thanks.

Answer #1: Yes
Answer #2: No
Answer #3: Mysticism was only recently discovered - it stems from the power of the heart and is directly tied to the powers that were present when Krynn was formed.
Answer #4: Justarius was the master of the Red Robes in the 4th age - the diety you are looking for is Lunitari. Only Wizards of the Red Robes gain access to Lunitari.

I would suggest reading the Dragonlance Campaign Setting as well as the Age of Mortals source book before even attempting to run a Dragonlance Campaign. This is not to scare you away from DM Dragonlance - I have been DMing Dragonlance since 1993 and always applaud others that do as well - it is gamers like you and me that keep Krynn alive.