Dragonlance Dragonlance "Reimagined".

[humble minion]

Because a core tenant of the campaign world is balance. If good wizards started wiping out the evil wizards (or denying them magic) then the Neutrals would join evil to help fight back. One of the largest disasters in the worlds history is when Good started taking over everything. This can be seen in real world examples as well IE The Crusades.

You can debate what good/evil actually means in real world context but this is a game not morality class.

The problem is that DL historically spends much, much more time and effort on discussing the conflicts and relationships between Good and Evil (and Neutrality) than on it does on thinking about what Good and Evil actually are. It often treats alignment more like picking a football team to support rather than defining and living by a moral code that may well undergo change or evolution over the course of your life. DLs view of morality breaks down badly when handling extremists, and ends-over-means types. Take the Kingpriest for example - we keep hearing about how he wanted to destroy Evil for the sake of Good, but where do we see him acting in a Good manner, with mercy, or humility, or charity, or forgiveness? DL kept trying to write unsympathetic Good antagonists to emphasise the whole Balance concept, but it always came across as if Good was simply a robe colour and a banner to march under, rather than a philosophy to be adhered to and acted upon.

(Anyway, doesn't the existence and cooperation of the three Orders inherently mean that both white and black robes tacitly endorse the concept of the Balance, and therefore support the core philosophy of Neutrality over a pure interpretation of their own? "I believe in the purest ideals of EVIL, rule of the strongest, take what you can and look out for number one and DAMN the rules ... oh, whoops, it's Tuesday evening, there's an Order meeting tonight! Time to go spend my time cooperating with my fellow mages to regulate and control magic use for the broader benefit of wizards and all of Krynn...")

 

[HammerMan]

In the video yesterday the WotC guys made sure to use the word "Reimagined" when describing the new Dragonlance stuff coming soon to a store near you!

What edition does everyone think this could mean?

 

[Alzrius]

yes we are talking about being reimagined by WotC now for current edition

In which case, why can't we reimagine that the setting includes classic spells such as detect good/evil or know alignment? Especially given that alignments are cosmic forces that objectively exist, and that Dragonlance leans heavily on the alignment dichotomy anyway?

I don't know what you think responcable means... yeah an evil person can be responcable with charm person... they most likely wont they ARE evil

Well, I'd say "responsible" isn't the same as "altruistic," in that even Black Robes won't do things to upend, say, the existence of the Conclave (which virtually any other mage, including other Black Robes, would call irresponsible).

so what? that is MORE reason to make sure bad people don't have it.

Which is a problem when good wizards, unto themselves, lack the power to enforce that mandate. Trying to do so would therefore either be tilting at windmills (helping no one), or lead to a war (if they were a credible enough threat that the evil wizards were pressured into a response), which as noted only makes things worse for innocent bystanders. Ergo, working together with the Black Robes is the least-bad option to a Good wizard.

no it is the evil view of good "If they don;t want to work with me they must want to kill me"

So you're proposing a scenario where the Good wizard counter the machinations of evil wizards, who will no doubt object to this and take measures to stop it, without leading to large-scale conflict between the two groups? Can you elaborate on exactly how that would work?

how is there not a cold war now? how do good people let evil people use magic to do evil things and stay good?!?!?!

Because individual conflicts do not rise to the level of a cold war; as noted previously, White Robes can and do work against Black Robes, but that's at the individual level, with the conflicts being personal. It's on the macro-level that wizards, collectively, realize that large-scale infighting amongst themselves is bad for everyone, including the innocent people Good wizards want to protect.

nobody is 'not respecting" someone right to exsist... except white black and red robes not respecting a passifist good caster who gets 3rd level spells and doesn't want to take the death live fire test./

Quick sidebar: the level of spells a wizard can cast hasn't always been the deciding factor for when they take the test. In the 1987 Dragonlance Adventures (affiliate link), for instance, it was taken before advancing to 4th level, and while 4th-level Red Robes could cast 3rd-level spells, 4th-level White Robes and Black Robes could not.

And again, if I'm understanding you correctly, your point is that Good wizards should be absolutely intolerant of the activities of Evil wizards. Even presuming that they wait until the Evil wizards commit some sort of tangible offense, how does this level of policing not lead to a larger conflict, with wide-ranging consequences?

 

[Haplo781]

The mutant analogy is not really accurate as gaining wizard levels is a choice. Don’t want to face the test? Don’t seek arcane power.

Doesn't work for sorcerers though.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In which case, why can't we reimagine that the setting includes classic spells such as detect good/evil or know alignment? Especially given that alignments are cosmic forces that objectively exist, and that Dragonlance leans heavily on the alignment dichotomy anyway?

I mean you can... but I doubt that is in the cards

Well, I'd say "responsible" isn't the same as "altruistic," in that even Black Robes won't do things to upend, say, the existence of the Conclave (which virtually any other mage, including other Black Robes, would call irresponsible).

so as long as they commit evil acts without upsetting the status qui... that isn't a good look in 2022

Which is a problem when good wizards, unto themselves, lack the power to enforce that mandate.

this just in the new definition of good is only being good when it is easy.

Trying to do so would therefore either be tilting at windmills (helping no one), or lead to a war (if they were a credible enough threat that the evil wizards were pressured into a response), which as noted only makes things worse for innocent bystanders. Ergo, working together with the Black Robes is the least-bad option to a Good wizard.

okay now do that dance with evil wizards being able to hunt down good ones that refuse the test... good, smart wizards that want to do good. Why should white robed 'good' guys allow that...

why does alignment matter at all if everyone is working for balance? why not just align with the three moons white red and black and ignore aligment?

So you're proposing a scenario where the Good wizard counter the machinations of evil wizards, who will no doubt object to this and take measures to stop it, without leading to large-scale conflict between the two groups? Can you elaborate on exactly how that would work?

sure... when evil guys do evil we get aa 3-6 man team of specialists together... a fighter a mage a thief and and priest and send them out to oppose them.

Because individual conflicts do not rise to the level of a cold war; as noted previously, White Robes can and do work against Black Robes, but that's at the individual level, with the conflicts being personal. It's on the macro-level that wizards, collectively, realize that large-scale infighting amongst themselves is bad for everyone, including the innocent people Good wizards want to protect.

I don't believe this is true in the real world or the game

Quick sidebar: the level of spells a wizard can cast hasn't always been the deciding factor for when they take the test. In the 1987 Dragonlance Adventures (affiliate link), for instance, it was taken before advancing to 4th level, and while 4th-level Red Robes could cast 3rd-level spells, 4th-level White Robes and Black Robes could not.

correct but i doubt the reimagining will change the spells

And again, if I'm understanding you correctly, your point is that Good wizards should be absolutely intolerant of the activities of Evil wizards. Even presuming that they wait until the Evil wizards commit some sort of tangible offense, how does this level of policing not lead to a larger conflict, with wide-ranging consequences?

okay lets try this again...
assuming someone that is evil will over time do more evil then good (I assume we can agree with this)
Anyone (caster or not) that is good aligned should NOT want to be associated with evil acts, and should appose at least most if not all evil acts.
Now if we assume both are MOSTLY true, and the entire organization is okay with 1/3 the group being evil. then the white robes should not by most standards be good.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Doesn't work for sorcerers though.

is there any class other then wizard that uses book learning? Bard, Artificer, Eldritch Knight, Arcane Trickster, sorcerer and warlock don't...

heck wizards get better at casting when they are in combat practicing combat casting.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If we assume that the 3 robes/3 moons are not alignment tied, and that the balance is a balance of power NOT between good and evil but two nameless factions of cosmic power (imbodied in the moons/robes) does that really alter the setting that much?

If we take out the raciest and ableist races does that alter the setting that much?

If we take out the sexiest only men can be knights does that alter the setting that much?

even with all 3 done, and adding in new classes and races does it effect the story and if so how much?

 

[Haplo781]

Spock now has a secret brother AND sister. Holograms existed in Starfleet before Kirk (this is explained in the new show that Pike doesnt like them and had the tech taken out of the Enterprise (hence why Kirk didnt have it either). Pike used magic crystals to travel through time... sort of. But thats pretty Trek anyways. Or he's possibly referring to the new Hyperleap mold warp speed thing that the Discovery can do which yeah seems like that might have gotten expanded on in the hundreds years later

Spock's secret half-brother is from Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. Which released 2 years before Gene Roddenberry died.

 

[HammerMan]

If we assume that the 3 robes/3 moons are not alignment tied, and that the balance is a balance of power NOT between good and evil but two nameless factions of cosmic power (imbodied in the moons/robes) does that really alter the setting that much?

If we take out the raciest and ableist races does that alter the setting that much?

If we take out the sexiest only men can be knights does that alter the setting that much?

even with all 3 done, and adding in new classes and races does it effect the story and if so how much?

Heck, you could even just make the red robes out number BOTH white and black 10 to 1 since they are all about balance

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Heck, you could even just make the red robes out number BOTH white and black 10 to 1 since they are all about balance

yup make the evil wizard renegades be the 'this is our story of why we need balance' and the good ones are a hidden rebellion trying to do good and help people